How To Talk To Anyone

Hello everyone, and welcome to The Human Behavior Podcast. Did you know that mastering the art of small talk could change your life? Join us for a fascinating journey into the world of effective communication and information gathering, where Greg and I bring our contrasting styles to the forefront. From hostage negotiations to courtroom dramas, you'll discover how leveraging the power of small talk can transform your communication skills.

During the episode, we explain the power of building trust through common ground as we share valuable lessons learned from personal experiences and family anecdotes. Whether it's identifying key decision-makers, balancing confidence with authenticity, or engaging in casual conversation about shared interests, you'll learn how these vital skills can make social interaction safer and more meaningful. Finally, we offer practical strategies for navigating social interactions with humor and authenticity, from the importance of situational awareness in everyday conversations to advanced techniques for de-escalation in high-stress environments. Our insights are both relatable and actionable. Through real-life examples, you'll gain a deeper understanding of how to read a room, engage others effectively, and build rapport.

Tune in to enhance your ability to connect, gather valuable information, and create positive human connections in every interaction. Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Please check out our Patreon channel where there will be a lot more content, as well as subscriber-only episodes of the show. Enjoy the podcast! We kindly ask that you leave us a review and, more importantly, please share it with a friend. Thank you for your time, and don't forget that training changes behavior.

Alright, hello everyone! Thanks for hopping on with us, and good morning, Greg. Today, we are getting into a little bit about communication and kind of information gathering, and how we do that. But the big thing I wanted to get into with this episode is, for those of you who don't know and haven't met us in person or anything, Greg, one of the things that you always do is you talk to everyone. Everywhere we go, you're always striking up conversations with people or getting into stuff or asking questions about things. Part of it is just your personality; you're extremely outgoing and everything like that. But what we glean from that, what I found, is that we often get little nuggets of information that end up being useful. It's almost like—what was that? In Wayne's World where it was like, "Man, I'm glad I met that guy," or something like that.

You know, you find something where it's like, "Oh, when he met that, when he was getting gas, I think it was the second one, he's like, 'Oh yeah, you go down to this ridge, and we go down to that tree, and then that's where the church is!'" And it's like, "Wow, that was extremely helpful at the time!" So, the reason why I want to discuss this is, we end up getting a lot of really great information from it. But you're obviously both a natural at it, but have also had different training on communication. When you get to hostage negotiator, excuse me, that you've done before in the past, and even having to testify in court, you have different experiences that have also built on it.

Where I take a different approach, just because my personality is different. Where you're gregarious and outgoing, I'm like, "Everyone, please leave me alone." It's just a little bit different. I believe it's like the—I like, you know, the sniper reconnaissance surveillance element, kind of being hidden in the shadows. Yeah. So, you know, there's a couple different ways that I approach it. So I want to give mine after you talk about yours, but for the listeners, if you're tuning in right now, I want to give you some takeaways that you can use.

The big thing is, trying to study one style of doing anything, whether you're reading about communication or leadership or something, it's like, look, read everything that's out there, watch it, take it in, and you kind of got to find what works for you. Because if you try to do something that doesn't fit your personality, your character, and who you are, it comes across as just weird. Like, it's odd. And you know, because it's that time of the year, we're in the middle of a presidential race, politicians are a great example because some of them have to work on that stuff; some are more natural speakers than others. You'll see when they're being robotic or doing too much, and it looks odd because it's not their personality. But some PR person told them like, "Hey, you got to do this more, move your arms this way," and it's just so unnatural and it looks weird. So we've seen that stuff before, but just because it's so relevant right now, you can kind of see that where some are better speakers than others.

But I want to go to you, Greg, and first kind of want to ask you, why do you do this? Why do you go talk to everyone? And we'll get into then kind of how after that. But you know, I think back, was this something like you kind of always did as a kid and then you honed it as you got older, or what is it about that, why you do that?

Yeah, so first of all, great topic, great question. The smoke and mirrors are going to part this morning, and we're going to get a look and see that Oz is actually a guy from, you know, Kansas, not some super magician, because you use the word "natural." This is one of the few times that I'll tell you I may appear as a natural now, but it was a long road to get to where I am now. As a kid, and even now, you know me better than almost anybody that I can think of, and you know I'm an introvert. You know that I would rather hole up in the hotel and read a book than go out and party and do all the other things. That's just not me.

But I love our recon. I love our pre-deployment site surveys. I love those because it gets me in that Jeopardy mindset of, "What is St. Louis?" I love that. You know, I remember Secrets of the Jeopardy Champions — we're going around the house now — Secrets of the Jeopardy Champions was one of the first books I read about Jeopardy, and that said that the best champions on Jeopardy were well-traveled. They loved traveling places, but that's not enough. You can travel places and never get out of the airport. You can travel places and never know the people or the food.

And I'll take you back, just, you talk about a memory and emotion link. You remember when you and I were in Frankfurt and the plane was delayed, and we literally went around trying to find absolutely everything that we could do about the culture and about the people and what was different and everything in that time before, you know, we had left Saudi Arabia. We had to catch the flight in Frankfurt and then coming back here. And we did, we used that time. We were exhausted, we were filthy, we were trying to get on a plane, but we said, "Okay, now it's time for the street interviews. Now it's time for the, 'Hey, you know, what's with the Gummy Bears? Did you know that a Smurf was called a 'schlump' in Germany?'" That's the kind of [ __ ] that keeps me going, because you never know where in that you will find that G. And you brought that up as well; that was genius for doing that.

But as an introvert, you have to literally force yourself. I read a book when I was younger from G. Gordon Liddy called Will, and Liddy was afraid of thunderstorms and lightning, so he lashed himself to a tree in his yard during a thunderstorm. He was afraid of the rats in the basement, so he went down and took a broom handle and beat a rat to death after cornering it and then cooked it and ate it. Now that's extreme, but he overcame his introversion, you see what I mean?

Yeah.

He also spent time in prison in the Watergate scandal. But other than those things, right? You know, you got to balance, right?

But so, being a natural, my thing was, one, watch my dad. My dad was a Marine and he led into every room with his chest and his head, you know, "Here I come, here comes the Marine! What are you guys up to over there? Whose house is this? Who do I talk to? Who's the—" And my dad used to give me the little tidbits too. He was like, "If you just walk in and just start talking to people, that's not enough. You got to figure out who the right person to talk to is. Who's the check-writer? Who owns this place? Who's got a stake in the game?" And I was like, "Well, why would that be important?" And Dad would lay it out for me. He's like, "Look, if a person's invested, if a person has skin in the game, then they're going to give you a real reaction to it."

And if you're not a natural, if you don't feel like you're doing it, if it's not—if you're acting, they'll find you out, because right away they'll put their hackles up and go, "Okay, what's this? I've seen those scams before." Right?

Even even when you're not—even when you're not trying to, like, that's why you're not trying to get over on somebody. For you, but if you're trying to do that stuff, it comes across as not natural, and so like you see it as like, "Okay, being disingenuous, the fix is in," even though you're just trying to, you know, be a better, be more sociable.

Yeah, exactly. And you've met both of my brothers. So my brother Brian, biggest introvert I've ever met in my entire life. Brian's sport was swimming. Talk about being alone all the time. Brian rode a motorcycle, okay? Talk about being alone; no room for underpassengers in there, right? And as cool as he was, he played Red Star, Whit Star with Greg Daniels up in his bedroom for days at a time. Sometimes they would have a cooler up there, playing this board game that's on math and a big dice and all these other things about the warfare.

You know, and the idea is that you've met Jeff as well, and Jeff never wants to be in front of the camera. Jeff is always three layers back, and he's been an executive dignitary protection for 40 years, and nobody would know it meeting him because he's not that guy, you know? So thinks exactly. Our whole family is that matte black, Rhino liner, subdued [ __ ] that you see, but it's not out there.

So I learned early, okay, we would go into houses in Detroit in areas that were rough, where the people didn't have a lot of money, and have to go into basements and pour bleach so we would be able to breathe fresh air and change the asbestos on a non-functioning furnace. So the first thing is the people are very skeptical. And then you're running into other people that aren't in on—you're there to fix the furnace, so what's going on? So you had to assuage those fears so you didn't have this high feeling of anxiety. So even as a kid, I would find out very quickly what in the environment is stuff that you can talk to. So you don't go into a house in the inner city where you're in a basement and water up to your ankles and go, "Hey, you got a beautiful house," or, "Nice yard," because you're going to immediately piss somebody off or sound like you're being sarcastic.

So you had to pick something else. So you see tools, or you see a bench, or you see toys that are, you know, handmade or fashioned in a different way, or you see a swing set, and you go, "Wow, yeah, that's in really good shape." And you mention it, you go, "Notice the swing set on the way in? Those chains look brand new." Seemingly nothing, but the idea is that somebody worked on that, somebody made that, somebody took the time to fix that for somebody. And right away, you're searching for common ground. Now, you might not hit on the first one; that's why there's so many at-bats when you're playing baseball. If it was just the one at-bat, and that was your only game that you were playing for the season, you know, so what are your stats? One.

But the idea is that what you do is then you measure, because we're huge on interpersonal. So you got to see, are the chemicals firing in the brain? Did the eyes go up? Did the person show that little smirk where you see that they're smiling on it? You know, and you say, "Well, a chain like that wouldn't be good for a dog." And then the person goes, "Well, why not? Well, it looks like it'd be too heavy unless he had a big dog." Okay, that's a second thing. Now I know that they got a dog bowl that's in the corner, so I'm being aware—situational awareness—and I'm using it to break the ice so I can open lanes of communication, lanes and lines, communication, break down silos, all the [ __ ] you hear all the time. But why? Why? Because it makes for a safer atmosphere. It makes it, it builds trust. It means that I can operate at the speed of trust. Right? Those are important things to me, no matter what age or location.

And you, and you said it too just a minute ago, because I want to hit on it real quick, is that, you know, it's it's sort of this finding common ground. And so it's now, now we're not at an adversarial relationship or a power dynamic relationship. We're, we're pointing to something over there and we're discussing that, so, so we can sort of come together, we can be neutral about that, or, or we can agree on something. It's, this is why some people are like, "Oh, I hate just small talk," and blah, blah. I was like, no, you're supposed to talk to someone about the weather and how the rain is doing this. Like, that's finding common ground so that you can have the next step of the conversation.

You can do this same thing with like, with, um, you know, it's what, because what I used to do too, especially like in the Middle East and stuff like that, is like always have, you know, cigarettes on me because smokers are social people. So it'd be something, now we're doing something together. Now we're having a cigarette. Well, now we're, we're, we're engaged in the same—

Different than everything else except this, we share.

Exactly. You're really, yeah, sorry. So go back to that. But, but like, I, I just want to highlight that is what it is, is that common ground or that common theme or something we can talk.

Yeah, very important point. So let me show you how different that is. So you and I spend a lot of time at rental car places and hotels, and places where they want to get you in and get you out. I don't have time. I've heard it all before, everybody. So when I walk in, I'll, folks, I'll give you one for free. It's a Greg-ism. So I'll walk into a hotel, never been at the hotel before, walk up to do the check-in, and the person says, "Next!" And I'll step up with all my [  ] ready, because I don't want to be an ass and delay everybody. And I'll look at them, and I'll say, "Tell me about your worst guest ever." And immediately, you'll see that person change out of what they're doing and go, "Guy came in with three Dobermans, and they [  ] right on the floor!" Or they'll start talking about that.

Yeah, or whatever, yeah.

I call that fishing. So I'm fishing to see if the person's open to a conversation. Now if they shut me down and say something like, "Oh, I wouldn't tell you that," then I'll change it to humor. Boom! I fire on the next, like a rotor in a car, the spark is firing to catch the gas, right, to get that internal combustion. So the next one will be, "Well, I might just be that guest, so you might want to share that with me now." I get a little bit of a laughter at something else, and they go, "Okay, I got it." So you're not sure where that's—look, when I would go on police calls, the same thing: the people called because they don't know what to do. So if you just show up with the problem-solving attitude and you don't engage in the small talk right away, they get the feeling you're on the clock, staring at your watch, ready to go. Yeah, same with the car rental.

So, "Hey, is it okay? Do you guys take a two-party out-of-state check with no ID?" And then right away, the person stops for a minute and looks at you.

Kidding.

Kidding! "Hey, listen, is there any upgrades that we could get today for free?" And now what you're doing is you're talking. You're not scamming anybody. You know me, I don't give a [ __ ] if they're giving something back. I just like having them smiling, and we leave. They know my name, I know theirs, and the next time we show up, it's like, "Larry!" And they're going, "Hey, man, guess what we did!" And I love that. So, so I need to check the atmospherics. And the best way to check the atmospherics, which gets me into the geographics, is to go first for the biometrics. What is it that I can share with this person while we're talking? A heuristic template match or prototypical match that I can build with you in the first couple of seconds that we meet. Most people make their decision on you in an instant, which means an instant for me is one to 10 seconds.

Yeah, so, so here, here's how I would explain that. Like if I'm watching this interaction and I'm narrating to the, to the audience here, right? And I, and I've seen you do that. The two-party out-of-state check always gets an eyebrow raise because they're like, "Oh God, here they do the—" Or, or the eye where they go, "Here we go. I've seen this before. What's this? You know, [ __ ] story that he's going to give me and why he can't, why he doesn't have a credit card for me to hold the room with, or something." Right? But, but so, so what, what, you know, this goes back to, you know, when you're doing that, it's like, you know, kind of the analogy we gave about throwing the rock in the pond, seeing where the ripples go out. But you're, you're, you're basically sampling the baseline, right? So you're taking the temperature.

And it's not to get—if I, I don't want to go in going, "Hey, I got to get this person talking to me." It's like, no, I got to get this person talking. I got to get this person on common ground. I need to, I need to, I need to get them on the first step of the stairs that we're about to walk up. That's it. I don't need them to go, "Go, hey, check out the staircase we're about to walk up!" It's like, no. And this goes back to that sort of small talk. But if you make it a little bit more personal, because you didn't just go, "Man, weather down here in Texas is really kicking today," you know? You, you, you use humor as a tool, because you know it, everyone has some sort of sense of humor. Like, every, every human being, you know, we all laugh at the same [ __ ]. So it's really just to find that common ground, that element, and then allows you to sort of take the temperature of where this person's at. And, and because the follow-on interaction, you know, we dealt with it where you can tell right when we walk in and we're going to check into a hotel—and it's such a great example because customer service gets really tough, and you know that person, you can tell like they've been dealing with this person for a while now, who's giving them some problem about their room or this or that. And you know, they're, they're done. Their cup is full. It's the end of their shift. They've been there all day. They've got—and you can just tell.

So anytime we ease that tension and intervene, or, you know, for for us, it's like, you know, it, it, one, it's, uh, people are always thankful for it, right? Because it helps them get through their day. And then it may help us, like you said, get that room upgrade or those extra bottles of water or some snacks from the—I mean, like, it's, it's just about, and it's just being a good human being, but what we really do is there's some information gathering purposes in that as well too. So, so, and so good, let's stick, because you brought up the hotel thing and checking in, like what, why else do I want to do that other than just being a decent human being—which we have to remind people to be a decent [ __ ] human being today? Like, what else, what else am I getting out of that?

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So, so I wrote down a couple of comments because you always come up with these great side spirals. And one is, you're talking about, you know, we're filling in that baseline and comparing things against a baseline. Folks, on your way to the restaurant, you're building the baseline. On your way through the parking lot, you're refining, adding, right? So the idea is, by the time I'm engaging with somebody at the restaurant, I've got a whole lot of stuff that I can do. So restaurant, Target, 7-Eleven, gosh [ __ ] hotel, rental car place, wherever you're going to go, muffler place because you got to get your oil change, whatever it is.

So Brian and I were in Atlantic City, and on the way into the hotel, we were probably a couple of miles from the hotel, I started looking for the worst gosh [ __ ] crap hole in Atlantic City that I could find and memorizing the name. And then we came up and as I was engaging in small talk with the person behind the counter, I looked at who obviously was the security, and I stopped what I was doing, and I looked and I said, "Hey, we're thinking about going to Mondo's tonight for dinner. Is that a great choice?" Knowing full well that the place is half burned down. You remember the people are out in front, the cars are up on Jackson, everything. And the guy goes, "Holy crap, no! You can't go down there! You got to go—" What did I do? I played into his suit. So that's just like a game of cards. I got to figure out what other people are holding and how I can get them to show me whether that's going to be a good bet. Should I stay on or get off, Brian?

And so the other thing is you made a comment about testing the water. Look, as a swimmer, I was a swimmer too, ran in family, I guess. As a swimmer, the thing you had to do in the morning because you were going to put on a lot of miles before a swim meet, is you had to go to the water and jump in. You never tested the water. You never reached down and hit the water because it was always cold and there was always too much chlorine. So you got used to being uncomfortable, as you would say, you know, sucking it up. And if you would do the toe, then it would take the foot, and then you're doing the ankle, and now it's 45 minutes later and you're up to your waist going, "Oh, you know, [ __ ]." So you got to just jump right in.

But it's exactly the opposite with communication. What you got to do is you got to breach that threshold and not be afraid to try, but you got to try a little bit slowly. Don't come in with a zinger right away. "Hey, what's with the [  ] [  ] hair? There's ghosts in this place!" You don't want to come in like that. You're not Shecky Greene. You get what I'm trying to say? Because if you're offing—you know what I mean, there's an environment for that. If it's open mic night and I'm at the bar, and I want to drink, you know what I'm saying, that's completely different.

I give you one more very quickly as we're narrowing down on what this might feel like with baselines. So I went and got my haircut. Look at this, I actually get this cut. And if I could find a Flobee, I'd buy it and do it myself. You remember the Flobee, the glove with its own vacuum?

Yeah, exactly.

There's another reference, that's the second one, and that was from Wayne's World One, by the way.

So sitting there waiting for my haircut, and you know, I arrive 20 minutes early for every appointment no matter what, so I can get the lay of the land. Most people you don't have to do that, 10 minutes is enough. But as I'm watching this woman getting her haircut in front of me, and she's looking in the mirror as the lady says, "Okay, we're done," in other words, "Pay me and go." And she looks and holds her hair and goes, "I just, you know, maybe a little more here." And I'm like looking at it and it's minutia, man. It's [  ]. And so the woman cuts and comes and cuts and comes, and then she looks and she goes, "Maybe right in here." And so she goes back. Brian, this took the whole 20 minutes that I was early, going back and forth on this little bitty [  ] that only that woman knew. And then she finally paid and left. And what about the next appointment, all the small talk?

So I'm up next. I jump into the chair, and the first thing I do is look in the mirror and I go, "Somewhere right in here." And she burst out laughing. Why? Because I used her discomfort, the uncomfortable nature, to break the ice and go, "I too understand what just happened. I have no idea how you got the patience." You know, and then the next thing I would say to a person like that, "Hey, you're on your feet all day, I'm on my feet all day. What's a secret with socks?" Oh, you see what I'm trying to say? So I'm fishing again. I'm fishing, what is it that this person is going to like to talk about? Because if not, one, uncomfortable silence gets us nowhere, okay? And at the end of the day, what I might learn inside that place could help me in future barber shops, or it could help me in the parking lot, a de-escalated situation that I'm going to get into that's not your property or where you know, your car or your dog. You never know. Do people ever get shot doing something stupid that you'd go, "There's no way somebody gets shot"? Look at road rage. So I don't want that. So every interaction, I try to control the pace of that interaction by opening up that door, you know, letting all that steam valve a little bit.

Right, and, and, and so this is, this is a good point to bring up because you're sort of getting into like how you do this, and you give some good examples and playing into what that person's sort of role is. So like you going up to the security guard and asking about that place that's not safe, okay, he is the security guard, so he is a protector. So he's going to go, "Hey man, no, don't do that!" Like, you know what I mean, you're playing into that, that role that they're playing, whether doesn't matter what the person is, you know, how good they are at their job or what they think, you know, you're, you're using the environment, what they, what you should expect to see.

Now someone could be like, "Yeah, man, go there, whatever, I don't care," that's, that's different, right? But, but you, you now get that, like, because you had more information going into that conversation than that person did. So, it's the same thing with, with the, with the customer service, right? Check out at a hotel, server, whatever it is, where you're engaging with customers, like that's part of your job. So you do. But, um, you know, it's one of those things, sorry my, my camera came unplugged somehow, but we can keep going, it'll, it'll fix itself in a second I think.

I actually don't notice the difference. That little A looks exactly like you.

But, but what you're, what you're sort of getting into is is sort of the, the, the how to do it and and based on sort of like, this is where it gets into based in your personality in a sense. And for example, like I am much more sort of introverted, not as outgoing and stuff, but I also want to kind of throw a rock in the pond and test things out. So it's sort of playing to who you are. Like, you use a ton of self-deprecating humor. It's, it's, it's a way for now to make you sort of the, the object of the joke, you know, rather than making that person like the object of the joke in a sense, because it, it, it relieves tension.

Well, that's what I mean. I take that on every time.

So like, how, like what, what have you found in, in sort of a process, because you talked about it from being a kid and, you know, um, what you can, um, (pause) sorry this thing is giving me some trouble. But, um, you talk about from being a kid and going through dad on HVAC runs, to all the way up to then you did like, you're a hostage negotiator. Now you're just doing it, testing the waters and doing situational awareness. So what, what did you find in terms of like a process on, on how to do that? I mean, that that's a lifetime of of learning and doing it. But like, how did you find, you obviously found patterns in what works in all of these different situations. So what were those sort of patterns or what were those things about people that you think you're hitting on that, that, that really helped relieve the tension or open up the conversation where it was otherwise would have been closed off? Like, what, what gets that, that door open when it's, when the, when the AC's kicking and it's kind of hard to pull a little bit? You know, what, what's the thing? What's, what's the, what's the negative air machine that I need to put on there, um, since we're, we're on a, we're on an HVAC time topic, so I guess I'll just stick with that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, so let's, let's always think of the least intervention and the least objectionable outcome. And you're back, by the way. And what I mean by that, for example, I was a really good cop. I loved being a cop. I miss it every single day. And the reason I love it is because I was at the top of my game, I could do no wrong, and I enjoyed the [ __ ] out of that. And one thing that I would do is I would love busting bad guys. So even though I worked on midnights and I would be running into bad guys all night long, I would get a chance to switch and do a day shift because we're going to a wedding or something, or do an afternoon shift. And I would see lawn care crews out there. I would always pull over with a bunch of donuts and a bunch of coffee for the lawn care crew. The boss never minded that five minutes.

Are there people, the same thing with carpenters that were working, and people would say, "Why do you do that?" Well, here's one thing. When do carpenters work? When are they pounding nails? When do lawn care people work? They don't work at dusk. They don't work after dark. Okay, so that means that they're up in that neighborhood at an elevated position or somewhere that nobody pays attention. Nobody pays attention to a guy mowing a lawn or using a blower. So while they're there conducting surveillance and doing ISR before a bank robbery or to do a burglary, okay, who's watching them? The people in that neighborhood. So if you got a dog walking service that's walking three or four dogs with a T-shirt, I'll always stop and talk to them. I'll bring them a breakfast burrito. "Hey, I work this area. What did you see? What are the cars that are parked?" "Well, I'll tell you what, people over there, they're always parked there because they're making out." That's a meet-me-eat-me. "People over there, they're always parking there because they're smoking the hashish," or whatever it is, Brian. But they saw things.

And remember, when you look at them, you don't see them because you're driving through the area and you're mission-focused on, "I'm setting up for this raid," or, "I'm setting up for this arrest warrant service," or a search warrant, or, "I'm, you know, going to rob this bank." So you're so into that moment that you're looking for what you're looking for: coppers, visible signs of authority, a way to get out of there. "Hey, that 7-Eleven is closer to the freeway than this one. There's my exit strategy." So that guy washing windows in an elevated position during the day, everybody tunes them out. So that's my source of information.

So now I conduct street interviews with those people, which takes going up and going, "Hey, I got to either flash the tin," or go, "Hey, I'm new to this area," or, "Hey, you just got the weirdest question you've probably ever been asked: What's the worst thing that happened?" Now you've got that dialogue going. But Brian, I'm using that information to create a more stalwart, a more, a more fidelity baseline for my next contact. Do you understand that every contact is like dominoes? They're setting up so I can knock down that next contact. Now I've got some insider information. "Man, that was a long flight." What did I just do? I just put the idea, I primed you to say, "Hey, where'd you come from?" Okay, now we're talking. So I set you up. So you know, I got my luggage, I'm coming up, I'm fishing for my ID, you get what I'm trying to say? And I go, "World's longest flight." I've interested you in something that's going on.

So you have to have a panoply of strategies. You can't go with just one, and you also have to be able to read the room. So just like we don't, I remember Brian and I one time were down in Texas teaching, and when we down, got down to Texas, my flights were late and I came in late and stuff. And so, so I did a joke on day two that would have been perfect on day one, but the folks in the room didn't know me for that first day, and so they all looked at me and crossed their arms, had the going, and you tried to come in off the top rope. They're like, "Who's this guy? You weren't here yesterday when we all became blood brothers!" You know what I mean? Like, exactly. "We know these guys, but we don't know you." You know, "You didn't sweat with us, we didn't have lunch together." So the idea is the same exact thing.

Now, now look, when you're paid to put on a concert, people are there in the seats for you to come out and entertain. That's not what you're doing here. What you're doing is you're talking about a taxi driver, or you're talking about the person that's bagging your groceries. Like for example, always give the side eye when a person comes up like nowadays, trying to find a place that bags your groceries or actually checks you out. Okay, those were things that made us human. Those were things that allowed us to interact with the world around us, and we don't do that anymore. So always make sure that as you're first coming in, or halfway through your shopping or something, you look at the lane that you're likely to go to and memorize names. So when you come up, I just did it. Had a doctor's appointment, knew the kid at the counter that opened the glass. His name was Carl. It's a small town, 10 feet away. So there's no way I could have read his name plate. I go, "Good morning, Carl! How's your day?" Okay, do you think that that de-escalates the situation? That opens all kinds of doors. "Wow, he's supposed to know this guy, he clearly knows me, what's going on here?" And when you see that smile, or when you see that nod, now you know we got something.

I've showed up on calls where cops are surrounding people and they've got every form of less-lethal out and one person's ready with the lethal, and they're circling, and that person's turning, and it's ready to go sideways. It's [  ] sandwich with the [  ] being lit on fire. And I'd go to somebody, "Hey, not to interrupt what's going on here. Hey, man, this guy ain't listening to anybody." And Father Flanigan would come out. I would reach into my bag of tricks and I'd come out and, "Oh, what are we doing, son?" I'd go right back to going my way with Bing Crosby and channel that old Irish priest, you know. And I would go like, "Hey, take a look around you real quick. It's about to be Humpty Dumpty. You're going to get the thumpty. What is it I can do or say to get inside your head and not have this happen? I'm not afraid of anybody. Are you afraid of me? You're not afraid of me? Tell me why you're not afraid of anybody." Guess what we're doing, Brian? We're talking. We're not beating, you know. And the idea is, the more I can get you to talk, even when you're agitated or pissed off, the less you're using your fists and feet and fighting me. But I'm going back to the first sentence you use today on the call: Can't be adversarial. If I come in adversarial, if that's where I'm going to go, and you're not paying to see a comedy club—

The problem is too, is sometimes the environment sort of sets up almost an adversarial or, or not necessarily adversarial, but there's like one person in power, the other person has none kind of role. And, and you see this a lot when people get upset, like airports are perfect because you got the gate agent, their job, they're doing people coming up and and doing stuff and asking all kinds of questions. And it's like everyone's first time flying, like they forgot how to do anything, right? These are just kind of stressful situations in general. But because the environment is set up that way, it, it's almost you, you, you start from that, um, kind of adversarial, "I'm on my side, you're on behind the, the, the desk here where I'm not allowed back, and you're the one in charge, and I have nothing." So people get kind of like, they, they sort of feel a little threatened by that sometimes too.

And I'm sort of just taking from the other perspective too, someone walking up and and asking a question and being, being approachable and allowing people to come up to you, right? Everyone talks about there's different ways to do that and to to look in a manner where no one wants to bother you, um, you know, or or or set up and and sometimes we'll do that with people, that's I won't get into that on the show, when we're when we're trying to throw a rock in the pond where someone's clearly putting up barriers and then we go drop right down in the middle of them to to break those, but it kind of reminded me of—

Here comes that yellow smoke, man.

Yeah, well, here's, there's a couple, one, there's one I, I saw, it's actually he's pretty funny, he's, I think he's a comedian, whatever, but I saw on social media clips, but he, he walks up to the gate agents and he's recording it and you know from the side when he's got the microphone on, so you can hear the conversation. And he walks up, he's like, "Hey, you know, I'm so and so, I'm in seat, you know, 33 after whatever. I'm, I'm traveling with my wife and we're not seated together, um, but you know, she is, I'm, I'm supposed to be up here asking you if you can seat us together, but I actually don't want to sit next to my wife, so I'm just having this conversation." And they're like, "Oh my God!" So now they're so uncomfortable and they're kind of like laughing but it's that nervous laughter, but it's, it's just like it's, it's breaking the ice.

And the other one I, I saw really, we remember when we were at, um, we were at school and we had this kid come up who was kind of just an odd kid, and he turned out to be a real odd kid, but he was a great guy. And, and, you know, and there's a mix of these students and, and law enforcement officers in there. And so there's these two guys that were like, you know, had been cops for a long time, big SWAT dudes, like, shaved head, muscles everywhere, just kind of sat down because it was before the class started. And this kid was sitting by himself and we just see him get up, go over and just plop right down in front of these guys and just have this, just start talking to them. And you could tell they're kind of like hadn't had their coffee yet and they're just like, "Okay." But they're trying to be friendly and nice, and they were like a little annoyed.

But you know what we learned, is found out from that, that guy, we had him on the podcast, Austin, and he basically, because of his issues and social issues and sitting in his mom's basement forever, he realized he had to make a change. So he started going out because he was terrible at like social interaction. So he did the G. Gordon Liddy like you're talking about, he just forced himself. He went to a mall and he goes, "Well, why don't I go to these old people? Because they're not threatening. They have no one to talk to. So they probably want to talk. They're here in public." And he would sit down and just try to have conversations with people. And like so it was his own like personal development that he did, but it was such, it, when you see that stuff happen, it was so powerful when we got the whole backstory. Because I'm like, "What is this kid doing? Like, how, how does he just walk up and plop down next to these two jacked dudes with guns who he doesn't know at all?" And it can take kind of a lot, but because of who he is and how he looks and his affect and how he approaches it, it's completely non-threatening. Like it's, it's, it's in fact, it's almost like, "Oh God, I got to talk to this little kid." I mean, but, but that's—

Good, you're smiling, going, "What's this?" [Laughter] "What's happening next?" Now I have some empathy for him. Now I'm starting to see it through his perspective. Now it's like, "Okay, this is, this is harmless."

And that that approach, um, kind of, kind of works. So, you know, the, the kind of next thing I want to get into because we're talking about really just easing tensions, this is de-escalation is what you're talking about, and get, you know, there's, there's benefits, everyone, psychological de-escalation, everyone from that, that person who's had a long day. You benefit it from some way. The other people do it, it lightens tensions. It's just easier when we're all laughing, having a good time, right? Um, so, so it's like sort of establishing and finding this common ground.

And, you know, the other thing I kind of want to get into is that that also really determines the baseline for the situation. It determines, it gives me a comparison point, because now I know if someone is still, even though you're trying and it's obvious you're trying to sort of ease the tension or have a conversation, and they're still putting up barriers, or they are, are, you know, backing, we're not going along with it, now that also gives me some insight into that person and maybe their intent. So, how, how do I, how do I do that, or what can I glean from that from people who don't want to go along then or continue to say almost are you? So you get what I'm saying? So now it's almost like it's, it's sort of not es—it's not escalating a little bit, but it's helping me really define the situation, what I can glean from it.

First of all, for everybody listening, write this down: this works just as well on a phone call. A phone call is a non-text verbal interchange over your thing that you carry in your hand. Most people don't make phone calls anymore. We make a lot. And during a phone call, not a Zoom, an actual phone call, you can do these same skills.

Second, okay, you've been with me at a thousand hotels, most of those for work, and on the way out, when we're going shopping for class the next day or when we're going to dinner, I always ask the person working the counter the same thing: "Hey, Brian and I are going out to dinner. Can I bring you anything?" And I say it just like I did, so it's very genuine, because I would actually get them something or bring them something from the store if they needed it. Because I've been in that position, I know what it's like working, you know, midnight shift, having to watch the phones from two to three or whatever the hell it was. And that's a great icebreaker, that's a great way to get that person involved in a conversation, and then they recognize you when you come back in and don't say, "May I help you?" when you've been staying at the hotel for three days.

Second thing is, you can pull off a character, and it's okay to be afraid. I'll give you an example: there's Father Flanigan, that's one of my characters. There's also Peter Falk in Columbo, where I go, "I just don't see that. Stuff is not adding up here. Help me understand what I'm doing wrong or what I can do to fix the situation." I mean, we go to places and the car is not there. We go to places and it's the wrong hotel room. We go to places where they booked us in Columbus, Ohio, and we're in Columbus, Georgia. So now all of a sudden, that person at the counter doesn't give a [ __ ]. They got nine people standing in line behind you. How do I get on your— "Hey, listen, first I want to tell you thanks for what you're doing today. I know this can't be easy for you. Second, there's got to be a way that we can figure this out together. Help me help you. How do we solve that problem?"

When you're there, rather than tapping your foot and being agitated and placing blame on somebody that doesn't need the blame, you're more apt, you're more likely to get what it is you want. If I come up and I go, "This is [ __ ] ridiculous! Get me a supervisor!" What did I just do? I just elevated the conversation to a place that might be unattainable later. I might have reached the threshold with this person in front of me, and then the next thing is fisticuffs.

So, psychological or verbal de-escalation, you know, I remember reading all the books. I had to get certified in the state of Colorado. They were all about the, you know, "meat eaters and plant eaters," and this and that. And I never found any of that [ __ ] helpful. What I found helpful is reading the environment before you open your mouth. Then once you—it's okay to be a little bit afraid. Open your mouth. Commit. When you commit to something, if the person doesn't—Brian's exactly right—if you're not meeting me halfway, there's got to be a reason why. And that could be either you're the wrong person, you have some physical or mental difference in your character that's not allowing you to be at that level, which is okay too. That, that doesn't mean you're going to be a classic obstructionist, or you are an obstructionist.

This happens a lot when we're HR or coppers or in a command role. Let's say that you're in a leadership position and you encounter somebody that's bristled already and they don't want to talk to you. Well, then explain to them, "We're never going to get anywhere if you don't tell me what's going on. What's the issue here?" Don't say, "What's wrong?" because that intones "wrong," you know. And don't say, "Well," like I've seen people come up and go, "Well, you're acting like a complete [ __ ]. Tell me," you know. Or coming up and saying, "Calm down, Brian." How well does that work?

Oh yeah, you might as well have a gas can, you know, and a, and a road flare to throw at somebody.

So the idea is to start small in a rehearsal at your local 7-Eleven, at a gas station, at some place that's close to your house, and go in there three times this week and buy something, buy a pack of gum. And the third time, okay, first two times I haven't said anything, just watch and listen. Third time, third time that week that I buy a pack of gum, look at the person, go, "How many packs of gum have I bought this week?" The person goes, "What?" And you go, "I'm the same guy every other day, and I'm going to be here in two days to buy another pack." Leave it at that. Then two days later, come back and go, "Guess what I'm here for? That's right, I'm here to buy the pack of gum." What I'm doing, Brian, is I'm building that trust by creating a little bit of inroad, and I can't build the whole gosh [ __ ] aqueduct on that first day. I've got to take it slow.

You know, and people are going to go, "I don't have that kind of time." That's why you're in to fix your rent. And and the barrier to entry here is this: if I'm so focused on this that I can't look you in the eye and sense you on your phone, and I can't look at, like Brian, you know how old this jacket is and I still wear it? I still have the brown one, I wear that. That, that's not accidental. That's to get inside of your head. I, I have my shirt untucked, that's to create a persona that you have an expectation of, so I can build on that when I'm creating or bouncing something off, testing the baseline. So those are intentional. When I fly, I wear my flying outfit. When we teach, I wear my teaching outfit. None of that is accidental. And I think the people listening to the podcast should try that. And you're going, "Yeah, but I wear a uniform for every day." Yeah, but is there a special pin or a special thing you say or the type of pen you hold? Saudi Arabia, all the men have to wear exactly the same clothing, so what do they specialize in? The pen that's in their pocket. Yeah. Every pen is different and it defines you. So you can find what defines you as well. And maybe it's religious. Maybe you say, "Have a blessed day" at the end of every contact, or "Praise God" in between your sentences. Doesn't matter what it is, Brian, but being consistent in that, then people recognize you when they see you again or they go, "Oh, I know this guy, he's harmless." And that's an important standard too. De-escalation is a two-way street. I have to lead you to want to de-escalate with me and lower the anxiety level in the room.

Yeah, and there's, there's sort of different, different methods. And, um, you know, I go back to kind of what I was was talking about at the beginning of everyone's sort of, you know, personality and character is a little bit different. So you sort of have to, um, find what, what works for you, or, or create something where, you know, like you, you gave the example of like, right, I'll untuck one part of my shirt, I'll drop some of my stuff, I'll kind of be the big buffoon, um, as as sort of a disarming technique. You do that because also you're like, you're, you're a big guy and you can come across as intimidating.

Exactly. I don't want to get punched in the face every time I meet somebody.

You don't, you don't want to start that off. So it's almost like, uh, you're creating, um, you're creating like you said, that that persona, that character. And, and you're, you're also kind of interrupting their, um, natural tendency to put you in a certain category or a box or something like that, right? So, so I'm creating a little bit of cognitive dissonance on there so that it, it forces that person to take an extra second or minute or whatever to, to look at your situation differently or not categorize you as, "Oh, here's some guy just coming up complaining again," or something like that, you know, and coming across genuinely that way.

But, you know, like you said, if you, you're, you're trying to, trying to do too much, or you're being robotic, it's not going to come across as genuine. And now they think that you're, you're up to something. And, and so this is when, when, you know, you, you, you brought up some examples of like buying the pack of gum or going in there. These are small things, you know, you can do and, and sort of practice in a sense. Everyone can get better at it. And, and it is harder because you brought up, I do want to get into that, that you brought up the, the cell phone, right? Is everyone staring at it and, you know, it's like these people talking about situational awareness and stuff all the time, like it's, it's way easier now than it ever has been my entire life to, to find out who's doing what and who's up to no good. It's so much easier because everyone is just glued to your phone. So if you're not, um, you know, while you have a little bit higher level of organization or you're, you're actually situational, where there's only a few types of people that are. So in some ways, it's easier.

But, but what that's done is also, like we, we, it's created sort of this zombie effect with everyone where we're just so used to, you know, we've created—it's not just because they're designed that way to keep us on there longer, but literally then we start building habits of how often we're on our phone and what we're looking at and all that. And, and so you, you kind of got to get into that other person's head and kind of do the mental Etch A Sketch and shake it up a little bit, right? You have to like get, get that their attention because there's so much competing for it. And that initial thing because you bring up this is, this is a great one to show the sort of generational difference. Like some of the things you're talking about, someone younger is like, "I don't want to do that," or, "Oh, that's cringe," or, "That's, that's weird." Or, "That's—" It's like, no, it's, it's, it's you, you may find it weird, but that doesn't mean it actually is. Or what I, that person is lacking in those areas of of communicating and used to like not used to looking at people in the eye all the time. Well, I can take that into account and go, you know, I can use that, right? So if I know that's a difference or I know that you're uncomfortable with that, well that's, that's something also I can use to help, you know, kind of lower the, uh, tension in the situation or make it less, um, you know, make it less awkward or something. And, and these are things that, that you, you kind of got to practice.

So like, because personally me, I'm, I'm definitely more introverted, um, you know, I don't just constantly, I'm not, I mean, yes, all humans are constantly on transmit, but I'm not super social when I'm out in public because I have things that I'm trying to accomplish or do. So, you know, to to get outside of that comfort zone, like those are all things that I used to have to do and force myself to do, right? Even when it came to like teaching or something, I had my own style or very comfortable with certain things, but then I kind of, kind of learn like, "Alright, well if I really want to get in the heads of people, if I really want to make this dynamic, I have to practice these few things." And so just taking them one step at a time, you learn what happens is your own style comes from that then, right? Once you push out of that comfort zone and getting in and just chatting with people and having those seemingly mundane conversations, um, I don't find them to be mundane conversations at all. Um, in, in fact, I, if someone is talking to you and they're bringing up stuff and, "Oh, that weather," you know, they're, they're what they're attempting to engage you in conversation.

And, you know, everyone kind of like is, there's just like bash on just, "Oh, this small talk BS!" And it's like, no, that's what makes the world go around. That's what allows us that ability to to converse with people we've never met because everyone can talk about the weather and it's pretty much affecting everyone the same way. So you're literally starting from a place of common ground. And, and those small things go, they pay dividends in the long run because next thing you know, it's five minutes later and you know every piece of information about that person that you could ever want. Um, and whether or not that has value to you is different, but, you know, it's, it's, it's helpful in those situations to look at the mundane, look at the normal, look at the typical, and then how do I kind of insert myself into that? And, you know, looking at the environment that you're in and playing to that role that that person's playing. What is the role that that they're playing at that time and place? And what is your role? Right? If I'm going to play the role of the passenger when I'm traveling, what else should I expect to see with that role? And I can use that because it's, it's a legitimate place to come from. And, you know, maybe I'm just trying to get a seat upgrade, but I got to start somewhere. I can't just walk up to the gate agent and go, "Hey, I'd love to get bumped up to first class!" Like, that's just not going to go well. So maybe I have to approach it, you know, in a way. So if, if I just make it methodical, like you can figure out what works best for you and your personality. And all these things we, we sort of, you know, we, especially now with social media, everyone diagnoses themselves with all kinds of different things that is half of them are [  ] [  ] anyway, and half of them don't even apply to that. The other half rarely apply to that individual. But then we, we start to become that person. We go, "Oh, this is my issue, I have social anxiety." So now you start doing things acting as if you're the person with social anxiety where you maybe you really don't. You get what I'm saying? It's like we come up with these own sort of faulty attributions to our personality or behavior because I saw a really interesting YouTube short on it and that's me, that's totally me. So it kind of corrupts the way we look at things. And, and that's why we go back to all the stuff is just normal, typical behavior, and that's the important stuff to look at.

No, even more important, and Brian's spot on, everything that he's saying is spot on. Let's go back to what you said: "People are constantly on transmit." My haircut, my jacket, the 25-year-old shirt that I'm wearing today, all of the things, my shoes, the fact that I've got them off because my gosh [ __ ] feet are hurting, all of those are telling a story. So my clothes tell a story, my haircut, my breath, whether I brush my teeth, the glasses I choose, or whether I'm, you know, wearing cardboard lenses, you know, with plastic sheets in them, the cars I choose, the car I drive, the color of the car I drive, the things on the porch at my house. They're all screaming at me that's you, you're trying to tell me about you and the choices that you make and the things that you like because you want to tell your story, because you're human. And your ego, whatever you want to call it, your insides make you want to be friendly because you don't thrive or survive if you're a loner. And, and if you're way out there on your own, there's so many things that we could go into: the psychological problems and mental issues, the physical issues, and all that other stuff of not being around people. And it's fine, it doesn't make you, you know, it doesn't mean that you're an outcast, but a, but a loner is a very, very specific type of personality trait. But if you're constantly on transmit, then I want to hear your story. That's the difference.

I remember, folks, you got to understand that like, I've been teaching for so long now, and I'm always teaching with people that are at the top of their game. So I've got these senior master chief dive bubble expert on all bombs in the entire world, and I've got to teach him how to get out in front of people and do this course of instruction, this little period, this three-slide thing. And they're out there going, "Well, I'm a quiet professional, and I, you know, can't get down to your level." Well, then you're never going to connect with anybody. You might be the best at something, but if you can't remember the guy, Ross, that did the paintings and he showed you how to do the paintings knowing full well you'd never make your [ __ ] look like him, but he still was what? What was he? Right? He was transparent and he was vulnerable. He went out there and showed you how to do it. So the idea is that first of all, you got to wear your heart on your sleeve. You have to be an empath. You have to have some level of emotions.

One of my favorite shows on TV and one of my favorite stars, Jack Webb and Dragnet. "Just the facts, get straight to it." The fast-talking, high pants. Okay, those were great shows and they showed what this quintessential cop was like. That's not cop work at all. Those people are going to shut you off unless you're thumping a bunch of people or doing it at gunpoint all the time. You know, that that's a different story. And, you know, we look at a situation—look at the situation with the, the Dallas coppers that got gunned down by one person during a parade. And remember the fear and the hate and the death that was going on there. Now we take a look, Democratic National Convention is on and I heard a couple of Chicago cops arguing about the pro-Palestinian protesters that were outside. But there must have been a thousand of them. Yeah, but you know what, none of them were trying to kill you. And you know what, none of them were wearing a bomb vest and working through the crowd to get close enough to take out your mosque. That stuff happens in the world all the time.

I read a, some—I don't want to use a disparaging remark—somebody said, "Hey, we were in France and we were talking about being Christians and these guys were really mean to us. Don't they understand Free Speech?" No, it's France! You're, what are you thinking? You, you go outside the country, you get what you expect. So inside the country, inside your own body, inside your own baseline, you have to adopt that external mindset. You have to think about, "What am I trying to do today?" And getting through with the least amount of friction and ripples is a good thing. So opening up lines of conversation, lessening the anxiety level, being a little afraid but trying something new, those are great things. Why do we put people in seats at the class? Why do we force them into a color and say, "This is your cell"? We want to get them out of their comfort zone, Brian, so they're more apt to go across the street and ask those tough questions.

So what, what, um, do you have any examples that like typically work all the time or that you've seen that one of the—hey, one of the easiest things to do, the lowest calorie ways to do this or to or to talk to someone or to get information, like the to—or just, I'll say, wind that back. What's the easiest way to establish enough of a connection or common ground to to have a conversation? Have you experienced anything that like you see across the board that typically works?

Yeah, so pick something that not everybody knows about. This is, you've heard me say it a zillion times: do your homework. So Brian brought up something just a few minutes ago about going and trying to get an upgrade on a plane. It's rarer than hen's teeth, and it's not going to happen to you because loyalty programs and there's a list and there's a line and all these other things that they got to put people. And it's all about pay, so if you're going to pay somebody, they're going to bump you up, but if you're not, they're not. So those are things you got to do before you get to the airport. Know that that's going to piss her off, or him. If you say something like, "Hey, look, if anybody at the last minute is, you know, has a fear flying and they bail and they got a better seat than the shitty seat I've got, please come back and get me. My name's Greg." Something like that is okay, and they'll laugh a little bit and they'll think you're half-joking. But you know what, if that situation does arise, as odd as that would be, they'll say, "Hey, where's that fat guy?" And they'll come back and talk to Greg.

The thing is simple stuff. Like, for example, a female might take time on her outfit to make sure that her earrings match a brooch or something. And so you can pause for just a second, look like you were going to walk by, and then say, "Hey, are those like heirlooms or did you buy them all at once?" Something simple like that. Now, remember if it's timing, there's a fire on the plane and everybody's trying to get off, not the time to play your game. Do you get what I'm trying to say? But something like the haircut, "Hey, listen, I can never get my haircut to look that, that good. Do you go locally or do you do it yourself?" Things like that are not so personal and they're generic enough, and you mean it, so you're really asking about it. Like, you know, "Hey, I noticed you guys went to a different color on your uniforms. How do you, how are you liking that?" "I like that a lot," or not, you know. A holiday coming up, "What was the weirdest thing that's happened today because of a holiday?" "Hey, full moon last night, you know what cops say about a full moon?"

You have to have a line, and I refer to that as banter. And you have to have banter that builds on something that's there. So to, to, to be legitimate, it has to be something that's reasonable in the environment. Do you get what I'm trying to say? You can't come up and go, "Hey, you know what I'd buy if I [  ] won the lottery?" Okay, "Oh holy [  ]!" I didn't—other be a quiz. Do you get what I'm trying to say? You can't be so far afield. But saying something like, "Hey, today I got to wear a tie and I think I left it in my carry-on." That, that's a great thing. What did I just do? Then the person goes, "Well, I've got extra ties," or, "Maybe you can buy one when you land." Now I'm talking. And once you're talking, that's the key, Brian. Once you're talking and we've got something going, if you're in a restaurant, "Hey, what's the most popular appetizer?" "I'm not going to order it, I just wondered if you knew what it was," or, "What do you eat when you eat here?" And then the person gives you that, "Well, don't try the fish."

Yeah, exactly. So is there any fish, you know, like is there any Atlantic cod indigenous to Missouri?

You know, it's starting off with just the dumbest thing like that is sometimes a lot of fun, you know. And we do that to just psychologically de-escalate, to open the door to later. Now if that person's just coming back and forth and grunting and throwing [  ] down in front of you, maybe you need to pick a new restaurant or a new waiter next time that you're in there. But I do the same thing as a library. I do the same thing at a Target. Anywhere that I go, and I'll tell you, don't forget the people that are cleaning up. Look, you might have two or three jobs and you're buffing a floor at six when I go in the morning to City Market to buy my [  ]. Stop and tell that person, "Hey, that looks really good. You're doing a great job." People appreciate that. So, but you keep bringing it back to making it genuine. I say that if you really mean it, it's going to come off as genuine.

And yeah, that, that's, that's true is is is, you know, kind of talking about finding something that you could almost compliment someone on or, or give them, give, you know, a little little little attaboy or, or anything like that. It's, because, you know, you really get that, you know, especially in those, especially if it's something customer service related, they have to deal with, deal with the worst people. And so like those little things go, they, they end up going a long way. And, uh, you know, you're, you're making something personal to them, but not it, not, not personally invasive. You're not like asking them about, hey, you know, is your—

Like, "What do you horrible, Tommy? You got the—" And the reason I'm saying that is Brian has to strike up conversations at the clinic all the time, and I'm sure that some of those conversations are happening around you, so you always have to take the moral high road while you're getting those very important test results.

Yeah, so, so we, we, we, um, we kind of, we, we covered a lot. And, uh, you know, start the the importance of it, you know, all of those seemingly mundane interactions are that's what situational awareness is, is meaning being able to figure out that and read the temperature of the room. You have to do that and then you have to test your hypothesis. And you have to throw a rock in the pond and doing that in a constructive manner or a deliberate, updated, you're getting a feel for for what's, what's going on. And, and those, yeah, the hotel ones are great. Like, you know, when come in it's like super dirty somewhere, it's like, "Oh great!" And then it's like, "Well, hang on, I don't know." It's like, "Hey, you guys got some construction going on?" "Like, yeah, they're redoing this place, it's a mess." Now it's like, "Okay, good, there's a reason, it's not because they don't care, there's something going on." It's just, it's, it's, it's kind of hypothesis testing and, and using, you know, just the seemingly mundane, cheesiest conversation, um, is going to get you farther than trying to come up with some whiz-bang question, uh, where they have to give you some exact piece of information. You never know what it's going to find, you just have to sort of pull, pull at the strings as it, as it comes along. So, um, yeah.

Do your homework around. Exactly.

Yeah, we, we, we covered a lot. Any, uh, any kind of final words on it, Greg?

No, one thing is if, if you do it every day, you get better. Yeah, point one. Point two, it's a lot of fun. And it doesn't hurt anybody. Being kind and being inquisitive, those are great traits. As a matter of fact, I hope that I pass that on to my children and their children.

Yeah, that's a great point. Um, thanks everyone for tuning in, and don't forget that training changes behavior.