Left Of Greg 028 Shot Down with Steve Snyder

Hello everyone, and thanks for tuning in. You're going to be watching the video version of the audio podcast that we did with Steve Snyder, who recently wrote a book called Shot Down: The True Story of Pilot Howard Snyder and the Crew of B-17 Susan Ruth. It's a really cool, really interesting book.

If you guys want to know more about us or about the show, please click some of the links down below in the description of the video. If you want to pick up Steve's book, which I highly, highly recommend—it's a really cool, monumental story from World War II that is one of the most interesting ones I've ever read—we went ahead and put the link to Amazon so you could purchase this book right there. So, I hope you guys enjoy it. Please check out Steve's book, and please check out more episodes of The Human Behavior Podcast. Thanks.

Alright everyone, thanks for tuning in. Today, we've got a special guest on the show by the name of Steve Snyder. Steve Snyder is, as we already mentioned, an author (and) historian, and he's here to talk about his book titled Shot Down. It's the true story of pilot Howard Snyder, his father, and the crew of a B-17 named Susan Ruth that was fighting in World War II. So, Steve, we appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much.

The book is super interesting. We'll get into a bunch of different areas with it and how we relate human behavior and human performance to it. But we'd love to have you start off and tell us a little bit about yourself, the book, and what your plans are with it, and everything that you've got going on right now.

Okay, well, thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it. I live in Southern California, Seal Beach, which is in Orange County, about 40 miles south of Los Angeles. I was born and raised in Pasadena, California. I graduated from UCLA and I had a 40-year career in sales and sales management. The last 36 (years) was working for a company called Vision Service Plan (VSP), which provides vision care as an employee benefit that corporations offer their employees to cover eye exams, glasses, and contact lenses. I retired from there in 2009, and that's when I had the time to really delve into my dad's war history in more detail.

Growing up, I knew the basics. I knew my dad, Howard Snyder, was a B-17 pilot. He was stationed in England with the Eighth Air Force. His plane was named the Susan Ruth after my oldest sister, who was one year old at the time that he went overseas. And he flew bombing missions over Europe. In February of 1944, his plane was attacked by a couple (of) German fighters, shot down. He was missing in action for seven months, but he evaded capture and eventually made it back to England and back to the States.

So, when I retired, I just wanted to delve in and find out more detail. My parents had kept a lot of material from the war years: his orders and letters. And there were two items that were really significant. One was a diary that my dad wrote while he was missing in action about his plane being shot down, and it is absolutely riveting; it's in the book. The other item was all the letters that my dad had written to my mother while he was stationed in England before being shot down. He was really candid in those letters. He talked about what bombing missions were like. He talked about what life was like on the airfield and the base. What life was like in England, in London, at the time. Escapades of him and his crew.

Reading those letters, I became fascinated with the story of my dad and his crew. It became my passion. I started just reading book after book about the air (war) over Europe. I joined a number of World War II organizations, started going to reunions, listened to veterans tell their stories, and spent hours on the internet doing research. Finally, three years into it, I just came to the conclusion that the story (of) my dad and his crew was so unique and so compelling that people needed to know about it, so I decided to write a book.

I was going to say, I think it was three books. You get the technical data, and you get the history of World War II in there. So, I think there's even one more, Brian. I think what came across—and I'd love to ask you about this—I think there's a love story that's in there too, because it's about your dad and his love of his family, certainly love of your mom.

Here's my thing: my dad, First Marine Division Raider Battalion, World War II island-hopper, meanest human being I've ever met, but he instilled in me the values of loyalty and truth and honesty and dedication and courage and all these other wonderful things. But I've asked my mom, who now has just horrible dementia and Alzheimer's—I asked my mom many times, "Was he that romantic?" She's like, "Oh, he's the most romantic guy in the world!" And he used to send me letters, and he used to do these things. I never saw that side of my dad. How was it during your research? Was your dad always that guy, or was that one more thing that you discovered during your research?

Well, I have a couple of things. One, my dad, my sisters, and myself—I have two older sisters, one, Susan Ruth, who the plane was named after, and then my other sister was actually born while my dad was missing in action. But we always looked at my dad like John Wayne or, if you remember the old Gunsmoke TV series, James Arness. He was a big guy, no-nonsense guy. But he was a very loving father, and he was the... my parents had, what to me, was the ideal marriage. They loved each other deeply, and that was just the epitome of what I dreamt about, that one day I could have a marriage like that. So, they were very romantic, they were very loving, they showed a lot of affection for one another. And so, he was a great role model for me in a lot of different ways. That's incredible.

Just so you know, and you might know, Steve, Brian Marren has been married twice, and he's still looking for that. So hopefully, on this marriage (he just had) months ago, hopefully this marriage, it's going to be that same type of relationship. But Brian Marren and I also share that we come from fathers where the father was the rule of the roost. And my dad knew how to say, "He's up there" with the back of his hand. But again, I just fell in love with the love in the novel.

My mom, first-generation German, she was under many of those bombs. She lived in little Kern ex Bergen. We actually toured her hometown and got to see (the) hospital, and all the places devastated by bombing. And you don't really see the full picture until you see it that way. And you did that, sir. You went to all these locations and you got to walk on the ground and interview the people and see those locations. And Brian and I have been to a number of countries and been lucky enough to see that. What was it like to walk in the shoes of your dad when you were doing that research? How did that affect you?

It's just incredible. I've been to Belgium six times. I just got back, actually, from my sixth visit to attend the 75th-anniversary celebrations of the liberation of Belgium, (and) of my dad's plane being shot down. And every time I go to Belgium, I find something new, the little pieces of the puzzle. But I'm so fortunate, like you said, to be in these places where history took place.

And I just went to a new one, though, on this last trip. I've been trying to find the farmhouse of the Franken family, who hid my dad. And the location, actually, they found out it was right under my nose the whole time. We just didn't recognize the building, but we finally did on this trip. And then, when I go, there's a Belgian gentleman, Jacques Lalot. I probably wouldn't have written the book without his help. He acts as an interpreter. And so, we finally recognized the building and we went in and talked to the people there. They couldn't speak any English, but Jacques talked to them.

And I said, "Well, can I go see the room where my dad was hidden in?" Because the Frankens had sent pictures of the farmhouse after the war and put a little arrow like, "This is the room where he stayed." And so, she goes, "Okay." So, we went up, up two stairs to the second floor, and went in this little room that was... I can almost touch both walls with my arms out. And to see that that's where my dad was hidden for ten days in that room, where he looked out that window. And so, I get goosebumps just talking about it, to be in these places where he was 75 years ago, and where he was hiding from the Germans. And you can't just imagine his anxiety and the tension, the fear, whatever that was he was experiencing at the time. So, it is just amazing to visit these places.

And what was it? You just mentioned another gentleman, you said that without his help, you might not have written it. So, what was that moment when you were doing all this research—because it's cool, it's your family, it's your dad, and you're reading through everything—what was that moment that you went, "You know what? I've got to write a book. I've got to document this. I've got to learn every bit of information." What was that for you? How did you get there?

Well, Jacques Lalot and another gentleman, Dr. Paul Delahaye, they were young boys during the war. They were greatly affected by it. They saw firsthand the atrocities committed against family and friends. And later on in life, they both became local historians. And they interviewed all these Belgian people and members of the Belgian Underground about events that took place involving my dad and his crew. And they documented their testimony, and they gave me unbelievably detailed information—as you know, that's in the book—that would have been lost forever. It was their dedicated research. So, I owe both of those men a huge debt. Dr. Delahaye passed away in 2013 at 82. Jacques is now 83, and so (he's) a great man. So, I probably wouldn't have written a book without their research. And Jacques is a dear friend of mine. Dr. Delahaye was a dear friend of my dad's, and I knew him, and his daughters and son carry on the association that he founded in the mid-80s to talk about resilience in that moment.

Sir, one of the things, and I don't want to give away too much of the book—I want our readers and listeners, certainly viewers and listeners, to get this book because I was fascinated by it, and I read it all in one 24-hour period. I could not put it down once I was captured. There's a scene, a section in the book, because I said before, exciting movies, but there was a part of the book where your dad says, "Okay, I have to record this. I know that this is a novel experience. I know that we're together for a reason. I know that we're escaping and the Resistance has now made a decision to hide and aid us." And what he wanted to do is keep what he was writing, but he didn't want it to be discovered and then jeopardize the people that were trying to hide him. And the guy that was hiding him said, "Hey, pal, that's the least of our worries with all the other stuff that we're hiding!" A pivotal moment and a testament to thinking on your feet, even while you're running, even while you're fleeing, and being right, to say, "Hey, I'm going to jot this stuff down for posterity." What a great moment.

Yeah, and to get that diary back that he wrote—pieces of paper, and you know, he left it there or I don't know exactly, yeah, he left it there or lost it—but to have an Army lieutenant, after the war, be given this diary that my dad wrote by one of the people that hid him, and then he mailed it back to my mother, and I have it today, is incredible. There are so many incredible little stories within the whole broad story, exactly.

And what's that? Obviously, without giving too much away, do you have a favorite part or something that you love to tell, or a little snippet of one of these stories or the book that you want to share with everyone to kind of set that hook and get interest? What is that for you? Like, what's your favorite part of the whole story?

Oh, that's called being ambushed. Even ambushed. That's pretty hard for me too. Right, imagine, as far as my dad's concerned, just the amazing decision he made while he was being hidden. He could have stayed hidden and just hunkered down and waited it out until the U.S. Army came up through France after D-Day, and he'd be liberated. That was the safest thing to do.

But word came that the Allies had landed at Normandy, and he knew they would be working their way up. And rather than just stay hidden, he decided to get back in the fight and risk his life joining the French Resistance and fighting the Germans and sabotaging German convoys. Because he could have easily been killed in the fighting against the Germans, or if they'd have captured him, he would have been shot on the spot as being a terrorist. So, there's not too many people, and I don't know whether I could have done it, who would have made that decision to leave relative safety—because he had a couple, and several, close calls of being discovered by the Gestapo—but to leave that safe haven and go and join this group of French Resistance guerrillas. They didn't know him from Adam, and to get back in the fight, it's just pretty incredible.

For our listeners, I'll put (the Geheime Staatspolizei, or Gestapo) from the Germans—a brutal, state police-type version. And obviously, the Luftwaffe shooting down the planes, and the SS on the ground, (had a) "take-no-prisoners" attitude at this point, specifically with the Resistance, (they'd) make a difference by killing them.

And I'd like to liken something to you, Steve. One of the things Brian Marren and I, sadly, are no strangers to danger in our careers or in our lives. But a person asked me one time, "Do you have like this gradient scale that once you've saved a life or done something that others would consider heroic?" Certainly, I wouldn't. I'm a humble guy, and I just was thrust into some weird situations. But they say, "Does it get easier?" And I would challenge, and I'd be interested in Brian and Steve, your reaction to this: it never gets easier. Every single time my life was in peril, there was another set of decisions that I had to make at that exact moment, whether, "Wow, this really could be life or death," and "If I make the wrong decision, a lot of people, including myself, are going to die." So, I think it's arduous every single time you get in that situation, which is why I never want to stop training or educating people. Brian, do you see it that way as well?

Yeah, it kind of reminds me—the story kind of reminds me, Steve—it's like, you know, you've got these certain people out there, there are certain guys out there and girls out there, that whether they serve, whether it's law enforcement and fire, or military, we've seen in different parts of my career spanning working with all kinds of folks, that they're kind of just made for that moment and for what they're doing. It sounds like that's who your father was where it's like, "Okay, he gets shot down, now he's on the run, now he decides to keep fighting, now he's going to continue documenting." So, he's not just reacting to things that are going on around him. He's actively saying, "What else can I do given the circumstances that I'm in?" And when you see people like that, that aren't just paralyzed in a chaotic situation trying to make the best of it. So, he didn't just survive, he actually thrived in this issue. Not just an individual skill, a team effort, right? He was responsible for so much and so many people at that point, yet he still studied, still went into the breach, and to me, that's a fascinating thing. It's hard to do. It's not easy to do. And every single day you have to redouble your efforts to be that guy.

Well, I think also, he was saying to himself, "There are all these other Americans out there who are fighting and dying to preserve freedom. And so, it's really my responsibility, my duty, to help them and not sit back and hide, but to do my part and to do what I can do in this fight against the Nazis." Yeah, yeah.

And Steve, one thing that I loved reading over and over and over, you continue to travel a lot to the different conventions and the meetings. And one of the things is Brian Marren and I both have an escape-and-evasion background, both professionally (and) in our private life, which is really hard to understand now that we actually have a podcast and talk. But the idea is that I would assume that the story of this particular B-17 and this crew resonates with that community. And I bet they use it all the time. I bet you get hit up all the time about this story in that community. Would that be a true statement?

Oh, yeah. Since writing the book, it's totally changed my life. Because I retired, I would just sleep in and reading books and going for walks and taking naps. And then since I wrote this book, it's basically a full-time job. I go all over the country attending air shows, signing copies of my book. I make a lot of presentations, PowerPoint presentations. I've got several of these coming up. And so, it's basically a full-time job, but it's my passion, and it's about keeping the memory alive and educating people about what took place, especially trying to educate the younger generations. That's a great point.

And yeah, that's what I was going to bring up next too, is that your dad is part of a generation that there are not many left, right? There are not a lot of folks who fought in World War II that are still alive today. And part of that is preserving that memory, carrying the stories forward. So, like I do some work, and we've done (work), Greg and I as well, with an organization called Carry the Load. And same thing, on Memorial Day, we go out and do certain things. On September 11th, we went to national cemeteries, cleaned headstones and stuff. And that's the whole thing, is that you (honor) their memory, that person, because you put up an image and you tell the story of who they were. You go to a group of people that go, "Wow!" You just learn something about the history of your country, just paying it back to those who went before us. And if we don't keep that going, we forget about those things and then (about) history. So, that's the biggest part, which is why I'm sure for you it is a full-time job, because you've got to keep telling those stories.

But I would go a step further, Brian. I would say that Steve's book, and one of the things that really captured my imagination (with) Steve's book (on) the first reading—I'm sure I'm going to read it many times on an airplane, I'll leave some dog-eared copy in that seat back—is that the story is as relevant today as it was then. Things are different: the aircraft and the technology and the countries being at war. But the ideals in that book about duty and honor and country, and having faith, and being able to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and get back up every day. To me, that's the essence of resilience. And we're dealing with a lot of our viewers, and a lot of our listeners have PTSD. We certainly do. A lot of them are veterans and law enforcement professionals and first responders. So, the reason that I really wanted to get you on the show is I think that they're going to benefit having the experience to read through and say, like Brian Marren said earlier, "Hey, listen, I know I've endured a lot, but look at what these folks did." And not only were they able to endure it, but they were able to thrive and then ultimately flourish. I hope you see that, Steve, that your book is as relevant, I think, today as it is (for) these next upcoming generations.

Oh, without a doubt, for all those things you were just talking about. You know, they said to me, "Where are the Greatest Generation, Brian?" There were 16 million World War II veterans after the war, and there's less than 3% of those men that are still with us. And they're fading at a fast pace. So, yeah, that's one of the big reasons I do what I do. I'm actually on the Board of Directors, (and the) immediate past president, of the 306th Bomb Group Historical Association. And it's our duty, or it's really our mission, to remember, honor, and educate. To remember the air war (in) Europe, to honor the men who fought it, and then to educate the public about it. Really, that's the purpose of my presentations that I make and why I do what I do.

What's the biggest thing that kind of surprises you when you're going around taking the tours and talking to folks? Is there anything that comes up, or is there a common theme that you hear, or something that was surprising to you after you wrote the book?

Well, I think the thing that most comes up—I mean, there are some groups I speak to that are really knowledgeable about World War II, but most of the groups I speak to know very little about the Eighth Air Force and the air war over Europe. And so, they are fascinated by it, just to learn about what took place in an overall scope. But most people just aren't aware of what happens or what happened after these planes were shot down, and all that occurred with, as far as the Resistance, the Underground, escape and evasion, and that part of it. You hear about the bombers bombing and being attacked by fighters, which happened in my book, but the book is unique from the standpoint that half of it takes place after the plane (is) shot down. So, that's rather unique.

And (it helps) educate people about how brave those Belgian people were, or the French, or the Dutch, who risked their lives aiding downed airmen. Because they risked not only their lives but those of their family and friends. If they were discovered by the Gestapo—the German secret police—they would be arrested, tortured, and either shot or sent to concentration camps. And some of the people who hid my dad and his crew didn't meet that fate. So, they were unbelievably brave; (it's incredible) how many people they saved.

Anybody that's ever been in Kermit, Texas, will love this book. Anybody that's ever had... I'm telling you, Brian Marren and I both (were) in there because we were teaching ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) and U.S. Border Patrol and attaching forces there. So, we're no stranger to that Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona (area). Kermit, and it's changed a little bit over the time, but I think that's fascinating.

And I've got to tell you too, Steve, that we're very selective about books for our reading list. One of the most common questions that we get in education is, "Hey, what do you read? What do you like?" And we actually have this little reading list that we pass around and say, "These are seminal books, these are books that change the way I think about certain things." And I would, I personally, I think I would add your book to that based on the fact that it is so many things. It's more than just history. It's more than a love story. It's more than being fascinated with World War II in the air war and the Resistance. I think there's so much there about the human condition.

And we teach human behavior pattern recognition and analysis, and one of the things that we always say is, "You have to understand humans if you're going to predict what they're going to do in a baseline." And for me, this is one of those books. This is definitely going on the reading list for me. Brian, how did you feel after you had the (opportunity to read it)?

No, same thing. And you kind of summed it up there in terms of what it is: human performance, right? What is resilience? What is adaptability? We talked about a lot of that stuff maybe missing more today than it was back then, just simply due to the fact that life is much easier in 2019 for the average American especially, but around the world as well. It was 50 years ago, it was 60 years ago, when the whole country was involved in World War II. Everyone was, whether you served or not, you were putting toward the effort in some way, and that kind of banded everyone together. It wasn't about whether you liked your neighbor anymore. You're stuck in a situation together; you've got to figure it out, right? And so, we don't have as much of that experience. So, I think it's good for (us) to look back and go, "Well, look, these are the conditions that were going on, and this is what people had to do." And some people did well, and others didn't, and some people flourished in this situation. So, that's what it is to me. It's a great, great story for all those different reasons.

So, what do you want people to get out of it? I mean, it's got to be just so... I mean, just to write this kind of story about your dad, it's got to be so cool. But overall, big picture, what is it that you want people to take away from this?

Yeah, when I first decided to write the book, I thought, "Well, it's going to be a book about my dad." But I quickly realized it wasn't a book about my (dad alone). It was much, much more. It was about his whole crew. It was about all the guys who fought in World War II, the French Resistance, and like you're saying, Greg, about the human condition. Yes, sir. And just to get the appreciation and realization of what those guys went through, and the sacrifices that they made, and the courage that they had, is really the thing that gets to me.

There was no other event in history that affected more people than World War II. Millions of people died, millions more were wounded, millions more were left homeless and displaced. And it changed the course of the United States and the world forever. We can never forget the sacrifice of those young guys. And a lot of people, I think another thing I try to get across is how different the world was back then, 75 years ago. There was no technology, basically, right? People didn't even read the newspaper; that was old news. Or they listened to the radio. The country was very rural back then; most people lived out in the country, not in cities like today. A lot of these guys had never been out of their county. All of a sudden, they find themselves halfway across the world, fighting. These guys were in their late teens, early twenties. Most of these men had never been away from home before, (away from) their mom. And all of a sudden, they can do whatever they want to do, they can say "no," you know... I mean, it was an exciting moment. These guys' lives (it was) really the defining moment of their lives. Yeah, it was. My dad for sure. Yeah, that is.

So, to go back to my comment earlier about, "Well, man, those guys probably had it a lot harder than I did in mine." But then again, I didn't get to go running around Europe and have drinks and hang out. Like, I didn't get that experience. So, maybe it kind of evened out, it came out about the same. But I mean that, and that's crazy. I don't know if you want to mention that, if you could real quick, give us some, for everyone listening, what it was actually like to be up in a B-17 on a bombing mission. Because everyone can, it may be fascinating, but (they) read books about spy novels or people hiding. Now it's, "Oh man, I can kind of maybe more build a model," and my age, everybody built that model, everybody watched those shows, right? Being there was so different. So, maybe, just because I can imagine what it must be like to be on the run, that's got to be scary. But I mean, give us a context from what it's like just to fly a bombing mission in a B-17.

Okay, well, flying the combat missions was brutal and extremely dangerous. And it was dangerous from the time they took off to the time they landed. At the peak, there were 40 bomb groups in (the) Eighth Air Force located in an area in and around East Anglia; it was about the size of Vermont. And these bases were all only about five to ten miles apart. So, the day of a mission, you have hundreds of these bombers all taking off at the same time. And back then, there was no radar, there was no air traffic control, and usually the weather was crummy, and it was overcast, socked in. They couldn't see anything until they got above the cloud layer. And so, mid-air collisions were not uncommon at all for these planes taking off.

Then they had to form up these hundreds of bombers. It took them an hour to two hours to form up before they ever crossed the English Channel to begin their mission. And the planes weren't pressurized at that time. So, above 10,000 feet, they had to go on oxygen, or else they'd pass out and could soon die. And it was extremely cold as well. It was minus 60 to 40 degrees below zero, so frostbite was a huge problem. There were many airmen that were hospitalized for lengthy periods of time with serious frostbite injuries.

And then they had to deal with the Luftwaffe, the German Air Force. At the beginning of the war, Bomber Command didn't think these bombers needed any fighter support. They thought these heavily armed bombers, with 12 to 13 .50 caliber machine guns and flying in these tight formations, could defend themselves from the Luftwaffe. But the Eighth Air Force was so sorely mistaken; they could not in the early years of the war, in '42, especially in '43. The Eighth Air Force suffered devastating losses, even though they implemented a mission limit of 25, and then you could go home. In the spring of '43, it was statistically impossible. Missions, the average number of missions flown, was only six before they got shot down. Geez.

And then they had to deal with anti-aircraft fire (flak). Guns could shoot 20 shells a minute. They were calibrated to explode at the same altitude that these bombers were flying. And so, when you're going through that killing field, my dad said, even though it was so cold up there, when he'd go on the bomb run and have flak shells exploding and the concussions from these shells just violently rocking the ship, he'd just be sweating profusely. I'd bet that would warm you up pretty quick. Back to their bases in England, they'd have to encounter the Luftwaffe again. So, it was really tough flying these combat missions. And then they'd come home, and then they'd have to go right back out, not knowing if the next one would be their last. Yeah, it took a lot of courage and determination to keep going back up there, never knowing if you might not be coming home.

I think it's a testament to your father, to his crew, to their B-17, (and) to all people that have served at one time or another. Anybody that served their country in this type of capacity has had either shell shock or PTSD; it just goes with the territory. The other thing is that even Luftwaffe, even the members of the German Air Force, mentioned that these planes were tough; they could take so much damage, they couldn't believe it, and they could shoot back. I mean, Brian Marren and I have had to load, clear, reduce stoppage, and do the timing and headspace on an M2HB .50 Cal, and the barrel weighs 90 pounds. And these guys had to carry a dozen and more of those on and off the ship and change them out, and just what they had to deal with in such close proximity.

And the unknown... the war in Europe was going, and then Pearl Harbor, and now we have the war against the Japanese. At that point, the Russians, we weren't sure what Stalin was going to do. And Truman had his hands full. And here comes this one crew that says, "Not us, and not today!" To me, fascinating. I think it's a great read for anybody that wants it; it's the perfect Christmas gift, and Christmas is definitely coming up.

Brian, I want to thank you for being able to bring Steve on the show. And Steve, I want to thank you. If in some small way we can reach out to all those communities that you touch every day, and tell them about the great work that you've done in this book, and how it helps breed resilience and helps open up some doors to conversations with our kids about our history, I think that's one of the next benefits of the book.

It was gratifying going out to Belgium for this trip. I went on a quest to find relatives of all my dad's crew, and I was successful in doing so. And there were about 28 relatives of the crew that went over for the celebrations this last month, and most of those were third-generation—grandkids, the kids. So that was really nice. Five years ago, was mostly second-generation relatives of the crew, but this year, it was mostly third-generation. So, getting those younger generations involved and they gained appreciation for what their relatives or ancestors (did) was really, really gratifying.

And then the other thing, of course, after Belgium, I went over to Munich, Germany, to revisit Heinz Berger, the Luftwaffe pilot that shot down my dad's plane. That's right, a thrill to see him again. That's an incredible journey from the beginning to the end. Luckily enough...

And Steve, I've got to tell you, I didn't think we were going to nail you for the broadcast. I'm so lucky that you said yes and thankful that you said yes. And that Brian Marren is... Brian Marren is like the vision of the future. Brian Marren looks forward and backwards with equal aplomb. I haven't learned that yet. So, Brian, your vision to bring Steve on, it's... Well, I applaud both (of you). Yeah, I really... that's it. I'm going to go ahead and want him to loop that. I've got that on record, so I'm going to loop that because, "Oh, it's like Greg doesn't normally say anything positive about me!" But I think (this) might be the moment, maybe right now, he sees (I'm) a little overcome by emotion, overwhelmed. Finally, something nice came out.

But Steve, we appreciate you coming on here. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you. I've had a great time. I appreciate what you guys are doing. It's really important. And thank you very much for reading the book and having me on the show and (for) talking with you today. I certainly hope you'll come on again. I think you're a fascinating guest. I think we'd love to talk to you more. So, perhaps we'll extend an invitation, and we hope that you'll accept in the future. Absolutely. Be my pleasure. Thank you.