L.O.G. 138 Dr Darian Parker

Hello and welcome to the video version of The Human Behavior Podcast. I'm Brian Marren, the host and creator of the show. As always, I will be joined by human behavior expert, Mr. Greg Williams, who the show is affectionately named after. On the show, we discuss different topics through the lenses of what we call Human Behavior Pattern Recognition Analysis. If you'd like to find out more about what that is, please check the links in the episode details and go to our website to learn more. Please don't forget to follow us on social media; the links are also in the episode details, and hit the like and subscribe button to help support our work. Thanks for tuning in, and we hope you enjoy the show.

Okay, well, good morning, everyone. Greg, and today's guest, Dr. Darian Parker. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Happy to be on. Nice to be with you both.

We're excited to have you on. This is another introduction, another great introduction we got from Rena, our friend Rena at the Better Call Daddy podcast. So, links are in the episode details, everyone listening. Always check her out. She's got some great discussions. Oh, we had a recent one too with Kevin. So, we'll get into all that stuff.

But this is how we linked up with you. So, we had a call with you the other week, and we all hit it off, and you have a really cool and interesting background. So, rather than me screw it up, I want you to go ahead and give us just a little bit about yourself, who you are, and what you do.

Yeah, Dr. Darian Parker, as Brian said. I've been in the health and wellness business for a little over 20 years. And the entire time, I've been a personal trainer, but also been, for about 15 of those years, a fitness executive, speaker, writer, presenter for national organizations, committee member, things like that.

My background, educationally, is my doctorate's in Sports Education Leadership, with an emphasis in behavior modification and sports and exercise settings, which I think also led us together through Rena: the whole behavior modification, behavior analysis aspect of that. But, in general, I love being in the fitness, health, and wellness industry. I wouldn't say that I'm like a fitness person though. I mean, I think people would see me, they think I am, but I don't want that to define me. I'm into a variety of subjects, a variety of things. I'm curious about human behavior. Again, I think that's what led us to each other.

And so that's why, real quick, right? Because when you said health and wellness, I would say that's not the most accurate description of you and what you do, because that's what Rena said, or someone said, and I first looked you up and said, "Oh, he does this." And then when I started looking and reading, I was like, "Oh, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is completely different. This is not someone who's been like a personal trainer for a long time and has their clients and has their thing." Like, no, no, no. I was like, "Hang on here," and I just kept reading and digging on stuff. And of course, when you said emphasis on behavior modification, obviously that's kind of what we do as well.

So, we love having people like you on from a different domain who are highly experienced, highly educated in that, but to talk about some of the same stuff, just in a completely different domain. So, my caveat to your humble intro on yourself is the health and wellness, that's not a good description, because, as you started to say, you do a whole bunch of other stuff. So, I'll let you go to Greg. I just wanted to note my thing.

My thing is, let's make sure that we have clear lanes and we stay in our lanes today. Let's not have any fun when it comes to health, when it comes to health and wellness and fitness. It will go to me. Clearly, I'm a better expert on that. Okay.

So, no. And Dr. Parker, if I may be so bold to call you Darian, because we kind of do know each other. Listen, what excited me is threefold. Number one, you say that you've been dancing around in this field, which it's clearly that you have, and your accolades are huge for 20 years, yet you look like you're about 17. Everybody says that. You've got incredible genes. Use them, wear them.

Yeah, the second thing is, when you start talking, the clear aspects that resonated with me immediately are leadership and behavior modification. Those two, you know, what we can change ourselves. Everybody's a unique little snowflake; everybody's a fragile little ego system. We can change incrementally by using both of those. We can be a leader or a mentor for somebody that maybe isn't strong enough to do it on their own, and behavioral modification works. Training changes behavior. So, I'm so excited that you're on here today because I want to hear your story. Why did you choose those? Why did you get started? Why did you choose that field of the panacea of choices that were laying in front of you? And with those amazing genes, why is it that you chose this as your field of expertise?

You know, I listened to my dad, actually. He, my dad, is a... he was in the military for 28 years. Awesome guy. Just, he's a very simple person though, I think, in his advice, and he was like, "Just do something you love. Don't worry about how much money you make, for just..." He's like, "I've seen so many people just hate what they do, even if they make a lot of money." So, "Just do something you really like." And so, I feel like for me, that took the pressure off from my parents. My mom's the same way, like, "Just, with support, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, that's great."

And I always loved meeting people and exercise. And for me, the exercise part, although I really enjoy it, it was always a secondary thing for me. It was more about the human behavior. I like the one-on-one, or two-people, connection. I really enjoy that. I'm not a big, huge group meeting person. I could do that, but I really like understanding a person from the inside out.

And so, my bachelor's and master's degrees are in Kinesiology, some of the hardcore science of the human body, the physiology. And that was great, but I felt unfulfilled just knowing that. And I was like, "Oh, you know, I'll be working with people in this, but I don't think this is going to be the reason why people are going to change a lot. I think it's going to be what's going on in their mind and their spirit and the whole thing."

And so, I figured behavior modification was good. It's like, "Well, I'm asking people to do something that inherently is not natural for them to do, and is not generally fun for them to do." So, I have to figure out a way to persuade people in a way that is not confrontational, and is kind and caring. So, I need to understand how humans think. It's kind of weird, right? How do we think? How do we make decisions? How do we stay in things that we do? How do we change? I wanted to learn that through theory and execution of different models and stuff like that. So, that's how I came to it for my doctorate. I said, "I want to focus on that primarily, and exercise in sports settings."

And you hit on a number of different subjects there, but in general about coaching and mentoring and what that means. You know, who's good at, like you said, you can have all that background and understanding how the body works. Yeah, that might not help you be a good coach or mentor to someone, right? Especially if you're not relating to them. And I've seen different coaches, you're talking specifically about fitness and stuff like that, where you have someone that can just look and they say one line, and it just clicks in that person's head, and you're like, "Wait, how did you know how to do that?" It's like, "Well, I've got 20 years experience doing this. I know what people need to hear."

But that's why I love coming at it kind of from this domain. You have also one of the things that was cool I found out, one of your reviews is from a client. It's like, "I've been this client for 14 years." I'm like, "Jeez, okay, now we're talking." Like, that's a relationship. And you even stress that a lot of stuff you say, "Look, this isn't just, I'm not going to do a 90-day challenge with you, with your thing, like this is beyond that," which I love, because that's always been my opinion about a lot of different fitness stuff or what people do. It's, yeah, it's about working out, but what are they really there for? You know, especially, I've got friends who own like CrossFit gyms and stuff like that, and they have these group exercise stuff, and people are in there and they love it in this community. I'm like, "This isn't about how much they can back squat. This isn't about how many burpees they can do in a minute." This is, there's so much more going on here that some organizations and people do well, like naturally, and some don't, because they miss that point. They're so focused on what they're doing.

So, it's an interesting way to look at it, and I kind of wanted to start, one of my first questions for you is, we deal a lot in what we call pre-event indicators. So, pre-event indicators of violence or a terrorist act, or sexual harassment, assault, different things that we get into. What are those things leading up to the event that can show you, right? And that to me is what a lot of great coaches and mentors and folks like you can do, because they can look at someone and go, "Okay, I see where this is going. We need to step in here and do that." So, to me, it's like, what do you see? What are your pre-event indicators, so to speak, that you see in people? And either clients that are going to do well or not do well, or some who are in it to win it, some who are like, "I'm just here because I don't know what I'm doing" kind of thing. What's that area that you see?

You know, this is a good question. I think that's what this is kind of going to be about, beyond fitness and stuff. I'm sure I think this is relatable to being podcast hosts too.

Yeah.

And guests, you kind of know when you're going to have a good guest or not by that first conversation, whether you're getting actually them, or the representation that they want you to see of them. And because of my time in this, I can point that out really quickly with people. And so, more and more over time, you start seeing, is when they come on, is there a sense that this is the person that I think they're going to be from here on out? Or is there another layer that is something just off? I trust my feelings a lot; I'm a big feelings person. So, I sense a person's genuine. Just, it's hard because this isn't like something I said, "Well, here's this method, and this method, and this method." It's a lot of feeling when I talk to the person. If they're giving me very short answers, or they don't expand upon what I'm asking them, something's there. They're hiding something from me, or they're uncomfortable. It doesn't mean I'm not going to talk to them, it's just like, "Alright, I'm going to have to carry this conversation." And some guests, you could barely say two things.

Yeah, that's the entire... that's whenever Greg goes on somewhere. Sorry, Greg.

Greg's a face though. You got to like, do this thing. I am the looks of this company that is here. You got to let him be him, you know?

It's like, but with fitness, you know, I can always sense the hesitancy. A big kind of pre-event indicator is if someone else told them to do it. "Oh, you know, my mom said I need to do this." "My spouse..." The big red flag is if my spouse said, "I should do this." That's not good. That means they're probably trying to be coerced into it. They have no value in the actual service, but because somebody else has value in it, they have tried to transfer that value onto them. That person is not going to do that service for a long time, because they have no internal value for the service. It's for someone else's value of it. And so, is that value transferred to you versus you having your own value? That's a big indicator, a pre-event indicator, especially for exercise.

Other things: where they get their information. If they start talking to me and they're giving me information that is completely bogus, or it's just completely quackery, huge, and misinformation. I know I might have a hard time with this person, because they think already that they have more knowledge than I do about the thing that they're asking me to do for them. That's an uphill battle for that.

Which you just described is wonderful, because we call it parlor tricks. There's a lot of people that try to be in our industry, but the thing is that science sets us apart. What they try to do is they try to, "Hey, we're going to put a leech on your forehead," or "We're going to read your earlier photography," or do something else. And many of those people are still searching, so they would seek out Dr. Parker, they would seek out Darian, because they want you to confirm their beliefs, which is horse crap. That's not how you start. No.

Tabula rasa is the clean slate. I want to start over; I want to learn from somebody like you. And one of the things, and really quickly a side note, Beyond Fitness, if nobody has that website, get that website, because that was really cool when you said that. I want to talk Beyond Fitness. That right there is the name of your company. Greg is actually beyond fitness as well. Clearly, my doctor says I'm in too good of shape. Oh man, he's beyond fitness. He's transcended.

The idea is when I size somebody up, and we meet a lot of people in this industry, there's a tremendous amount of bravado. People are coming up and pumping up their chest, and "I'm the, you know, whatever." I look for a couple things, and I jotted them down when you were talking. One: consistency. When we met you the very first time, I'm talking now to the same person that I met that just came back from Iran, that was stretching out in their living room. You get what I'm trying to say going on. I love that.

Competence and confidence. You're not overconfident. You're not being an intellectual bully, which I hate. And you have confidence in your own abilities, and you're transparent. You talk about yourself. You talked already; we know something about your dad and your mom. Those are the type of people that we find that can be a catalyst of change. They're the people that can be that coach, that mentor, that can show you, "Look, I'll tell you right now, I do one thing in my life very well, that's human behavior pattern recognition analysis. Every other aspect of my life is a mess. Just look at me. Just be with me for a few minutes, and you'll see that." But the idea is that when I want to go to somebody, that's who I want to go to. I don't go to the guy that sold me my flat screen TV at Walmart and go, "You know, I got this bunion, and it's really been bothering me, and I want your opinion on my bunion," right?

So, what are the type of people like Brian and I? We certainly don't do it for the money; we're both broke. What are the type of challenges that you like, Darian? What do you seek out now, because you're at the top of your game? And folks, if you're listening or you're watching this, you've got to understand that Darian literally is Dr. Parker, look him up, is at the top of his game. So, you've got the experience, you've got the training, you've got the body of work behind you. What are you looking for now? What excites you? What kind of challenges?

Actually, I'm glad you asked that. One thing I'm trying to do is kind of transcend my profession, not in an arrogant way. I don't want that to sound like it's not... if I wanted that, I would just say it. But, in the sense that I think that we're too defined by our work for so many people. And in fitness, it's very similar. It's, how can I look? How can I come across? How many workout videos can I put out? And all this, I just want to move beyond that. Yeah, I want to be someone that is like, fitness is important, but the most important thing is how we treat each other and creating a better social network with others.

So, one of my big goals is, and I'm working on this, is kind of creating a community, a positive version of social media that I'm working on, and that transcends kind of the negativity, the depression, the isolation that we're feeling, and doing something that really matters. It makes a very large difference. I'm not saying that fitness doesn't matter; it does matter, but it's just one portion of health. It's not the... if somebody's like, "What is health?" and somebody says, "Well, I'm healthy." I don't like when people say that, and they go, "I'm healthy." I'm like, "What does that mean?" Right? Like, "Do you have great personal relationships? Do you have good occupational health? Do you sleep well? Do you eat well? Do you exercise well? Do you have spirituality?" Whatever it is. Like, if you don't have all of those things pretty centered, how are you healthy? Health is a very generic term. So, we need to transcend these kind of superficial terms of health and wellness, and get down to the core of "Who am I?" Ask that question. I want more people to ask the question, "Who am I?" and be able to answer that.

I love that. And this is, you know, you're out in front of this stuff. And this is the way I've looked at stuff in different domains for a while too. I talked to one of my good friends who was in the military for a while, does a lot of programming for guys going to different like selection processes. He works with a larger company, and he does all their programming. And that's him. He's like, he went, he goes head into everything, right? He went, all about CrossFit for a while, until he did really well at it. He was, "Well, it's not really, okay, I get that." Then he did Olympic weightlifting and just went all in, and then went ultra marathon running, went all into it. He's just trying to find, he goes, "What is it that he's unlocking? What the human underneath it all?" He was searching for himself the whole time. And when he finally found it, it's amazing, right?

But you brought that up as, the fitness part, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you were looking at it like fitness part is a tool or a part of a, it's a part of a greater, greater circle here. This is a big diagram, and fitness is one of it, or maybe that's the pathway to get to this. But just like you talked about, "Oh, I'm healthy, or I'm fit, or I'm strong, or I'm this." Well, what do you mean? Because, I'm sure you see it the same way, one of the things I see in different fitness communities, you'll have people that are incredibly disciplined and work very, very hard. Whether that's for like strength and conditioning stuff you're doing, or bodybuilding, or whatever you get into. And I'm talking, they're counting every calorie that goes in their body, every rep and every set, and they're mapping out and they've got the diagrams, and the rest of their life is a complete and total mess. And you're like, "What's the point? What are you doing here?" Like, "You can't hold a relationship, but you look good with your shirt off. What are we trying to do?" That's not health. That's not health.

But, and I'm not, I don't want to come across as I'm talking crap on those people. It's actually the opposite. I think those people have all of the tools, all of the traits necessary to be successful in all of those other areas. They just haven't applied that same regimented way of doing it to others. Does that kind of make sense?

That's spot on. And Brian, what I think you're really talking about, it's a lexicon. I think that sports and fitness and health become a language, and you're familiar with that language. You can speak it fluently, right? Yes, that gets you in the door. That gets people to answer the phone or answer the email. But now what happens is, you've also found that it's a limitation. Now all of a sudden you're thrust in Portugal and you only know Spanish, and somebody comes up and says, "Muito bom," and you can't even tie together that he's trying to give you a compliment. That's what happens when you're single-minded a purpose and you don't understand your relationship.

Look, there's no difference between mindfulness and situational awareness. The situation you're in matters. The things you do and don't do matter. The words that come out of your mouth, the things that you watch and read, and how you communicate in your small span of control. And I love, Darian, that you try to influence those people in a small group, because small groups turn into big groups, turn into great ideas, and last forever, right? But we find that as well. And we jokingly call it, people want a "thing" when they're really looking for a "think" with a K at the end, right?

And so the idea is, I want to come to you because you're outgoing, and you're good-looking, and you're in shape, and you're smart. But what I don't understand is that that all took work. And Brian, your point about that discipline should extend in the other things that you do, the study. Like I always counter it to be a samurai. And Darian, you're a true modern-day samurai. So, you love to paint, you love to write, you love to work out, you know, all of these amazing things. Me, I love to cook. I love to eat. You get what I'm trying to say? Hello, yes, sitting is an art. But the idea is, the more things that you excel at, the more, the healthier, to use that lexicon, you are. So, if we can change like, for example, when we talk about mental health, I go high and right. I blow a nut because we're separating normal health to clinical health to mental health. Well, what did that just make the person feel like? You get what I'm trying to say? "Well, let's discuss your mental health." Oh, there we go. So, I see that I'm the one that's getting pushed off the boat while the island is further and further away. I'm always thinking of that, to shipwreck people. Look at me and go, "Nah, maybe Andy's... if the plane crashed, we could use him, but certainly not for paddling."

So, knowing that, knowing that you're a modern-day samurai, what kind of, what kind of life messages, other than your work which exemplifies who you are, what kind of simple life messages did your dad tell you, did your mom tell you that you're still using today? Simple things like training changes behavior are things people can get behind, and they're not just platitudes, they're ideas. What's your fundamental principles about that?

I think one of the big things is like embracing conflict is important. Especially if you've been in any significant relationship in your life, and specifically if it's a long-term relationship, you're growing with another person. There's going to be conflict, and I think you have to embrace it, because a lot of the change comes during the conflict with that. And also how you argue with people. Learning how to argue with people is very important; it's a skill. And most people, they have poor argument behavior because they never learn how to argue, or they learn from whoever they grew up with, right? So, if somebody shouted and yelled and was violent, physical, that's their behavior. That's how they have modeled arguing. And if you learn how to argue appropriately with logics and facts, and you embrace conflict, you're going to grow exponentially from that.

So, I never shy away from that. If it's an issue, I'm like, "Okay, we need to talk about this. We need to be calm about it. Let's state what's going on here." And I also never try to create defensiveness through being offensive with people. Whenever you go on offense against somebody, it creates defense, and that's what happens, and then you get pulled into it. That's a large problem with arguments with people, is somebody says something that is essentially a low blow, it creates this massive level of defense, and then it becomes an all-out shouting affair, and nothing happens. There's no hearing of what's happening, things of that nature.

So, I think growing up, I just saw my parents. They're always very calm with each other. They talk things out. They set a good example of hard work, work ethic. I clearly was my dad, the military chain of command, asking for permission, understanding your role in different things. And I'm sensitive to that. I had the fortune to grow up in that. I understand that a lot of people did not. I can't even imagine the difficulties it is growing up without any rudder, without that structure. Humans need structure badly, especially adult humans. Children, of course, but adult humans think they're beyond structure, when you need it badly in order to be and to move higher in society and to do the things that you want. You need structure, and trying to destroy structure, I think it destroys the self.

No, that's incredible. I love the way you put it. And I totally agree, especially adults need structure, and more structure. And with kids, the way I look at it, I've got a little nine-year-old insurgent at home, and she's, she's incredible. But I look at it as I try to give her left and right lateral limits. Like, you just, you stay within these lines, and then you explore whatever you want, right? Because they've got to be a kid and learn that, right? But me personally, I've got a list of things I have to do. I have a timeline; I have this. If I don't set those things up, like, I need to have that strict structure. Not, "Well, I'll get this stuff done this afternoon." No, no, I have to have it.

So, it's funny because adults definitely need that more than even kids. But your comments about embracing conflict are, I love the way you put it, and learning how to argue and stuff. We grew up a little bit differently with how we solved issues at our house. There's a lot of yelling and alcohol involved. But I had to, like you said, I had to learn. And we always say, people teach you how they want to be treated, and you teach other people how you want to be treated. So, I had to learn from other people in my life, and that embracing conflict is not unlike when we hear, "Get comfortable being uncomfortable," you know, all that stuff. But to really do that, man, it's a big ego check. It's a humbling experience.

And I love it too. It's like any time I get in some argument or something with my wife, afterwards, I love it because we're, "Man, we just went through that." And we are now better for it. We are now, it's like, you know, we chiseled away a little bit of that stuff we didn't need, and we're getting that pure stone right there, you know what I'm saying? And that's a great way to look at it. Now, it sucks in real time when you're trying to do that, but I've been able to learn, same thing like you're talking about, in the back of my head, "Okay, this needs to happen. This has to run its course. Let's get it all out there." Because me personally, some people have reactions to events and get angry and say things that they don't mean, right? Or they say something, whatever it could be, horrible thing. I typically don't do that, meaning that's never been my reaction to say something I didn't mean. So, when I first remember hearing someone say something to me when they're angry, we're arguing, I'm like, "That's the most F-ed up thing I've ever heard. How could you possibly say that about me? I would never think that about you." But I had to learn, "Oh, when it comes out of me, I usually mean it." So, like, don't ever go to that extreme. I argue differently. And so, it's just learning all that stuff is tough. So, I like the way you articulate it. But can you give me an example or tell me, how do you do that? What does it mean for you to embrace conflict? Like, when you're doing that, how do you do it?

One, I just try to stay really calm about it, which can be angering to the other person, because they want you to kind of, "Why aren't you taking this as seriously as I am? Get upset." Like, "I'm upset." I'm like, "Well, I am upset. I'm just not going to..." You know, for me is like, there's some things you can't take back that you say. And I never, not to this day, I've never said anything crazy to anybody that I felt was like the final blow, or to my spouse, where it was like, "They're never going to forget this thing I said to them that really hurt them." I don't think my wife would say that I've ever done that with her. And I'm very careful about that, because there are certain things that are just difficult to come back from, and they feel insurmountable. So, I just, I want to make sure that I'm approaching any situation, one, that I'm very calm. I think about, if I need some time, I step away. I mean, people hear that, "If you need some time, step back." I'm always thinking too, I think of the consequences first before I do something, which is the opposite of a lot of people: "Do things, the consequence is, 'Well, I can't believe this happened to me!'"

For me, I think, "If I do this, these are the possible outcomes of my behavior. If I don't do this, these are the possible outcomes of my behavior." Then I make a decision about what I'm going to do. That was probably my gold standard for everything, because I hear a lot of things. When you work with people all the time, every day, you hear a lot of stuff, and not everything feels good that you're hearing, right? And so, I'm like, "Okay, how am I going to choose to react to this? This person's upset. I need to think, 'What is the outcome of my behavior in this situation if I choose to open this door?'" I think, and I teach my daughter this, I'm like, "Think before you say something. Think about what the fallout will be." I think that's exceptionally different for people to think that way.

That is so true. And folks, Dr. Darian Parker, look him up. Listen to what we're talking about today on the show. Darian, you brought up a couple of things I want to hit on. One, I like to street things up for people going, "Okay, so give me a 'so what,' a takeaway." You just gave like three or four in a row. Folks, if you've ever been in an argument and you stop and you turn and you go, "And another thing!" Time out. Stop. Erase it. Go back to tabula rasa. You've exceeded, you know, we call it outrunning your headlights. You're on a dark road. You get what I'm trying to say? You're driving too fast for conditions.

You talked about consequences. You know what I love about consequences? You use the term that we use very freely, but the etymology is very important. You said if you're on the offense, being on the offense means that our terms are offensive. And we don't even think in that context anymore, do we? So, here we are, and I'm imagining pictures that came out over the last 18 months of groups of people nose to nose. Okay, where's our efficient communication? There's no efficacy of communication because we're there with the "and another thing!" And what that is, is that's the hate, the bile, the vitriol. That's all the things that we're carrying with us, with our cup. And it's like this elusive water balloon, right? And we're, "Well, I'm almost going to lose it, and I'm in pain, so let me tell you something serious. If I'm in pain, by God, you're going to be in pain, and let me just unleash that."

Okay, one, we have no consequences, and sometimes we can't unring that bell. Next thing that gets on the news, and the next thing is we have a show called Dr. Pimple Popper. We've got 90 Day Fiance going the other way. We've got, "We're just going to meet this person, we're going to marry them, and then we're going to see how they do in a ball full of cats rolling down a hill." All of that is just nonsensical horse crap. I think you've got some new ones in there, Greg; we've got to go to a studio.

But the idea is, Darian, you're saying that we can have a calm, rational communication about things, and we can still walk away from the negotiation table in complete disagreement, but we can still be friends, and I can still understand your point without taking your position. When did we lose that?

So, the minute that we talked, first of all, Rena Friedman is magic. Anybody that doesn't know Rena Friedman, she's like a portal to another dimension. Don't think of her as a human, because she's not a normal human. What she is, is she sucks you in with that smile, and then the next thing she shoots you out and goes, "Go do great things!" Right? So, when you and I and Brian talked to see if there's a great fit, and we'd be able to talk, within the first couple of minutes Brian and I are texting each other, "Oh my God, we've got to get him on the show!" Why? Because you have structure in your life, and you understand that absent that structure, you would be a jellyfish. You understand that you have to work towards goals. Absent hard work, you are nothing. You don't let the situation define you; you define a situation and use scientific process to break it down.

How do we, because people ask Brian and I this all the time, how do we put those gems on a drop that you can put on your car and be smarter tomorrow? Isn't that the gold standard? Isn't that what everybody wants from you? "How can I take a pill and be better tomorrow?"

Yeah, it's, you know, it's funny, I get this a lot with people and I'm like, "But, you know, the thing is, you can't replace the work." I mean, you just, you just can't. And like, you may think you want a world in a society that makes life easier for you on every single element, you don't have to work. But then that actually leads to loneliness and isolation, because if you have to work for nothing, what is your life about on anything? I mean, you're just milling around watching TV all day, and it sounds great initially, and then after the first week you're like, "What am I doing with my life?" You know, like there's no magic pill for most things in life. It requires work, and it requires systems, which I'm a big proponent of.

I mean, I think I drive my wife crazy because before I do anything, I need like 20 minutes of time to just center myself. She's like, "What are you doing back there?" I'm like, "It says, 'I see your schedule, you don't have to start 'til 8:00 AM.'" I'm like, "Yeah, but it's like, it's a mindset. It's the approach. How I approach something centers my emotional compass." When I'm talking with people, I'm like, I think about it. Greg, you mentioned about people pointing and stuff. And that really, right? Because I was talking about this the other day with somebody, and I was like, "I see these pictures and videos of people, and one person's on the other side, and the other person another, and they're just being nasty to each other." Right? I was thinking to myself, one, "Why would you put yourself in that situation? There is no thought process behind, 'How is my behavior going to be?'" Or maybe the thought process is, "I don't care, and I'm just going to tee off." Like you said, "I want you to be angry with me. I'm coming down here to raise hell today." Like, that's not healthy. That's, in a sense, that's not emotionally healthy. I think you have to, you literally have to sit down and say, "How do I want my behavior to come across to have the desired outcome that I want?" Hopefully, it's a positive. If you're saying, if you actually think that way and you want your outcome to be negative, you're probably a sociopath at that point, seriously. You're writing a manifesto. Yeah, you've got some serious problems if you actually think about it, and the way we're talking about it, and you desire destruction. I don't know, I'm sure, I don't think, I don't know anybody who may be listening that's, if you are like this, I'm telling you, you're going down a very bad path in life. I'm like, "You're using it for the worst aspects. You're doing the right thing for the wrong reason."

And that gets into a lot of what we talk about with human behavior in terms of intent. I want to establish someone's intent or see what it is, and I try to get a lot of people to think that way, just in how they approach conversations or comments or social media stuff, because we've seen stuff where things get taken out of context, or someone meant one thing and said another because that delivery is just as important as the words and what you're delivering. How you deliver it is important because, my always thing is, what is this person's intent? What did they mean by it? Not how did I take it, what did they actually mean?

And it kind of goes back to, I want to circle back a little bit to what you brought up when you said, I asked for like little pre-event indicators of stuff, and you said people like bogus information versus someone who does it. Are there some common ways of thinking or ways of communicating that people do where you can pick up on that they're not really into it? And then what are the ones you hear out of people that, no, they do want to make that change, or they value what they're about to do? What's that difference that you see?

I think one for people who listen to this, and this is for anything, but I think if you're, let's say you're taking it to just fitness or training, if, you know, I try to put in kind of little nuggets of behavioral nudges for people. I'm like, "Schedule four sessions, even if you're just going to do three. It's just so if we cancel this one, we have, we can be more consistent." But if a person tells me, "Well, I only want to do once a week, and I've got all this stuff going on in my life. Somebody's moving into my house. I've got my family moving in. My daughter's having a baby." But I'm like, "Oh, this is chaos." I'm like, "This isn't going to work." Already they're telling me the reasons why they're not going to do it. They're telling me versus the other person who was like, "Yep, my significant other is very supportive of this. I'm going to make, I have time. I'm going to schedule it in my calendar to make sure I'm accountable to this. And if we need to make changes, I'm flexible. We'll reschedule if I have..." They're saying all the things why I will be successful with this. So, one person is telling me all the reasons why, all the barriers to their success. The other person is telling me all the reasons why they're going to become successful.

Those are great examples, and I kind of want to perfect that because I want people listening to know when they hear that in others, or they hear that in themselves, like sometimes we make excuses or come up with reasons why we can't do stuff, and we don't even realize we're making excuses. And that's only because we're not interested in it. And it's much easier to tell that person or whatever like, "Hey, you know what? I'm not interested." And I'd rather hear that though. I'd rather somebody just say, "I'm not interested." We talked about that all along. I'd rather you just said, "No, I'm not interested."

And you know, same thing even with what we do when we're pitching to like a potential client. We've got our pitch down to, you know, it's like a 20-minute, boom, and then a little bit of time for Q&A, so it's only a 30-minute Zoom. If you can do that, then we know it's as much for them to inform them, and then we know by their reaction, like, "This isn't for them," or "They're not interested." And the problem is you get people who are either, maybe they think they're trying to be nice, or they're saying, "Oh, no, this is great. You know what, let me talk to so-and-so." And I'm going, "They're not going to do it. They're not going to tell you." And I'd rather someone just said, "Hey, you know what? We... I have had people before go, 'This is some of the most amazing stuff I've ever seen, but it's not for me and what I want to do right now. But hey, if you're in the area and you're having a course, can I come to it?'" You know what I mean? Like, they've been positive but been like, "This is not for me." And I appreciate a no just as much as I appreciate a yes, if not more.

And I'm curious if you, humans in general have a hard time, like you said, embracing conflict. I don't want to say no. I don't want to do this. I don't want to offend someone. Or I don't want to, like, we have that. Do you see stuff like that in your line of work and what you do?

Oh yeah, all the time. And actually, I just did like a mini solo cast. It was called, Ghosting as Garbage, because that's so prevalent today. And your silence is not an answer. Not getting back to me is not an answer for that. And actually, I was talking to Rena about this too, because as a podcast host, and anything in life, you experience sometimes people who no-show. You have no communication. Honestly, it annoys me. This is honest; it really annoys me. I've had to learn to kind of, "I've got to let this go. This is eating up too much of my emotional welfare here."

Well, you only have so much bandwidth.

Yeah, it's like, just not showing up is not... it's a poor behavioral practice, because you're actually practicing something that's going to become common for you to do. And so, if somebody doesn't get back to me, honestly, I mean, I think it's just poor behavior. We should just call it what it is. Very poor behavior. And the thought process often in their mind is, "Well, they won't care," you know, whatever. And they almost downgrade themselves. "It doesn't matter. It's just, nobody will care if I don't show up." No, I care that you show for that, and you should care that you are present for things that you commit to in your life.

So, it happens all the time. And a lot of things in fitness, I think it's easy because it's something that people inherently don't want to do anyways. So, they're like, "Oh, that's dreadful. I'm just not going to say anything. I don't want to do it, whatever." You know, like they'll move on. But I think it's just, it's just the easy way out. So many people are trying to find the easy way out. And it's one of the uphill battles, I think, with my profession, is that technology and fitness are rising at the same time in weird ways. And that technology is making our life incredibly easier in many ways, which is in many ways impacting and colliding with fitness. It's like, "Okay, if we want people to move more and be more active, why are we making life easier physically for people?"

Oh, you're exactly right.

So, I don't see technology falling backwards, and all of a sudden we're going to get blown off, everybody's going to be into manual labor and stuff. It's kind of almost a weird inevitable future, right? In a sense of behavior. It's like, we're creating a behavior of doing less physically, although purporting that we need to move more. The messages don't line up. So, behaviorally, we're confusing people with those things.

Yeah, and I think life is structured that there's a lot of things that you're supposed to run into and figure out on your own. And I loved your use of the term "nudge." That's brilliant, by the way, keep that going. So, if we look at a football field, we take a look and we see the line of scrimmage. So that's where the dissonance is, right? Yes. And on one side, we have the offense, which can become offensive, or the defense, which can become defensive. If we go through that scrimmage, we could get to the goal. And so life is literally set up like games, and we set our games up like life, but we don't understand that while this is really hard, and we're not making light of things like mental health or things like not achieving a goal. But by the same token, it's very easy. The goal is right over there. The key is in your pocket. How do you get there?

And so every once in a while, we need a Brian Marren that has no soul and has no left and right limits and everything else.

(Laughs) Human emotion. I mimic human emotion. But...

Exactly. He's like a little wooden blade. And so, we were out one day, a couple of years back, and I have this policy, I have certain policies that I keep to, little rules in Greg's head. And one of them is, when we're on the road, I'm only going to eat healthy. At home, my wife is an excellent cook, but I tell you what, the minute that she leaves, I'm like in the yard gnawing on a ham because I just have these urges, right? But when I see Marren, and when I see Shelly, I see any other member of the team, I'm going to eat healthy. I'm only going to eat fish, or I'm only going to do this. I'm going to do these things. I'm going to make sure like I've already got it in my head with my workouts every single morning that I get up, no matter how I'm feeling, I'm going to work out and it's going to start early.

So, one day, when I'm on this road to this transformation, I'm sitting down and I got fried fish with the coating on it and vegetables. And Marren's sitting across from me and he's going, "I see you got the fish." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm trying to eat healthier." And he goes, "You don't need any of this." And he scraped all the horrible food off. Now, Brian knows me, and as a great coach and a mentor and a dear friend, Brian knows that the way to get to me is literally what I'd like to refer to as this "slap of reality." And I don't mean anything by that, but he comes across and yeah, he's laser-focused with a purpose, and he doesn't mean it in a harmful way. He's never mean to me. He's just blatantly obvious. Yeah. You know those lessons, I look down and I kick the ground for a few minutes, right? But then I dust myself up and I get back into the game.

Now, the reason I said that is, not every dojo is for you. Not every diet plan is for you. Do you see what I'm saying? So, I would tell people that would come to me for karate, "Listen, you need to spend as much time searching for the right dojo as you do trying to, you know, the road to the black belt." How do you deal with that? How do you, because I, I don't know a better way of describing Brian's tenacity. How do you get people's attention when they're...

Brian's soullessness, apparently.

I mean, but it's okay to mention everybody in his life. Look at the background; the reason this background is blurry is that it's flames coming out. This is devoid of goodness.

What is it? I take a good direct approach with people I know, and it comes across sometimes. It's like, "Wow, you're really being a dick here." And I'm like, "Yeah. Are you? Like, no, remember you said this, and you weren't going to eat that, but now you are. So, I'm just confused. Did I hear you wrong?" And people like, "Jesus!" And that's when I cry.

Hold on before you go on with that. And Darian, I need to know. But soulless Brian, we're out and we're running during a scenario, and he looks at me and he goes, "Greg, you're not really running. You're just moving your arms faster." Okay? Those are the type of gems that keep me, you know, soulless Brian keeps me motivated.

Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I love that term, "not all dojos," basically, for everybody. It's like, I don't think I'm for everybody. I've told a lot of people that. I'm like a marriage trainer. I want to be with somebody for a long time. My business is like 90% of people have been with me between 10 to 15 years. It's incredible, you know? And I think it's because of the human behavior element of it. I focus on the companionship and compassion element of it. But not everybody wants that. Not everybody wants someone who they can chat with and have a good conversation in conjunction with having a regular exercise program. Some people just want to get in, get out, and be done, you know? Or it's a seasonal thing, and then they want to try something else. I think that's okay.

I think the other thing too is, I always tell people this, "Listen, I love working with you, it's great, but if this ends, it ends." You know, like, "I'm not going to sweat it too much." And I know that sounds kind of bad a little bit, but it's like, "I'm not going to break myself to make you like me." Come on, because, "I need this." Like, maybe I do, maybe I don't. But the thing is, things end at some point. And fortunately for me, most of the time it doesn't, but it will. I mean, it will end. I'm going to be dead one day. I mean, it's not like it's going to...

Yeah, I never forget that either.

I'm going to die, man, and they are too. And whatever time we have, I want to make it really good time. But I never think of, if I lose somebody, I just, "You know, this, it happens in life. You lose in life sometimes, man. That's just how it is." And I think that's a message that we're not getting today a lot. "We want everybody to win." You're not doing anybody any favors. "How does that work? 15th place ribbon for showing up?" I don't understand that.

No, Darian, and we fight that all the time, because somebody says, "Okay, is it post-certified?" "No, it's not post-certified. It's more like a college course." "Well, do I get a certificate of completion when I'm done with that?" "Well, I can write you one. Alright? That's what you're looking for. I mean, what are you thinking?" So, those people, they want that, that, they want you to give them the feeling. Okay, there's a difference, folks, between empathy and compassion. They're completely different. You see, I have empathy. This is where Brian is. Brian has compassion and empathy; he just chooses not to use them.

Actually, I've got my daughter and the wife, so they get a lot of that empathy. I think it's happening.

Darian, I like what you're saying, because, and I don't want to paraphrase what you're saying, but I'll say it in this manner. Sometimes you've got to kick people to the curb. You have people that you think that are your friends that are not, and they're just bloodsucking vampires that are using you. You have other people that their relationships are more important than your friendship, and guess what? Those people are going to drag you down with them. So, if you're drowning and you know that you can only push a couple people into the boat, you've got to make that. And people go, "Well, that's really hard math." Yeah, when you've seen as many people die as I have, you understand that that's what's waiting. So, survival means that you've got to pull together. Juntos sobrevivemos (together we survive). And if you're not going to play, if you're not going to lean in and help us push this uphill or whatever else the situation is, then guess what? We can't be together anymore.

I like that. And so, I will work longer and harder than anybody else to get you where you want to be. You've got to meet me somewhere, man. You've got to help me out. I love that approach.

Yeah, and I'm all about nurturing relationships. I love doing that. I always get back with all my guests and connect with them, and I try to build a bridge. But if somebody doesn't want to build that bridge back with me, I just let it go, man. You know, it's okay. It's okay. I can't, I can't put a lot of energy into if they don't want to put energy into it. Whether it's work, or it's relationships, it's like, "Alright, you know, maybe for me, a lot of that's based off of my past of growing up in a military family and moving all the time. And you have to learn to let people go like every couple years." Yeah, I know that's a big thing, but, you know, I can't just ruminate on something for a huge amount of time because we're no longer together or not. The world's going to keep moving, man. I've got to keep moving. I've got to keep it moving.

Yeah, and moving in that context, which is brilliant, by the way, again, another excellent statement from Dr. Darian Parker. You're not just talking about moving a house and geographically moving to a new house in a new neighborhood making new friends. You're talking about moving ahead. You know, it's the pedal on the car again. Neutral gets you nowhere. Parking gets you nowhere. Going backwards isn't going to help you at all. You have to either put it in drive or put it in low and dig in, or you're never going to get anywhere. And either you're with me or you're against me. And I hate to be binary, but to me, that feels much more like a choice I can get behind.

So, what is your kind of goal with this? You brought up a lot of great points about how technology and fitness and that stuff is changing, and it's in your behavior, and you have this behavior modification approach, and you've got all this experience doing it. I know you've got the Epic Leisure Management company that you have. So, in big picture, what would be, what's your goal with what you're doing? What would be ideal for you? What are you working towards that you think people need right now? Because, you know, we've been talking for 50 minutes so far, and this is why I had that caveat at the beginning about you being just in health and wellness. Like, we haven't even talked about working out or anything. We were just talking about humans and behavior, because that's what it's really about. And I love it when some people see that as a tool to get in there. But we're like, "What are you trying to do with this and everything that you're working on and working towards and fostering these relationships?" Like, what is your goal with it?

You know what's funny is, I don't think I have like this penultimate, like, "Once I reach this, this will spread to the masses." I don't have any of that. I think it's just like, my goal is to just kind of dink and dunk my way through life with people. Have one conversation here, another conversation there, another conversation there. And to create seeds all across the planet that I want to be remembered for somebody that actually cared about people and wasn't just taking from people all the time. And so, every conversation to me is another step in a sense of enlightenment for me. I'm trying, I want to honestly just become a better person. That's my goal. It's simple, I know it sounds like cheesy kind of thing to a lot, but I just want to become a better person. And I believe you do that by talking to a lot of people regularly, getting different points of view, and also being kind to people. I want, I know again this sounds like Hallmark cards, I know, but I want to spread being good to other people, because you see it as much as I do. What you see is a lot of divisiveness, a lot of friction. I want to get rid of the... there's... friction is good in life. It's good to have friction in certain points in life. But I think that we need to step back and see each other as human beings actually, and see each other as people who are just different from each other, and that's okay. But we have so much gold to give to each other, so much knowledge that we can share with each other. And so, every person I talk to becomes another person in my network. The ultimate thing is just to create a large group of people that I can connect with, and if we need each other for something, we can just call each other. We can text with each other. We can just, we have a group, I guess I'm kind of more into the village aspect of the village raising people. I'm really into that idea, kind of the elders aspect.

You know, and that's exactly why we connected well with you. Is you're talking about basic human psychological and sociological needs that all humans throughout history have always needed and relied on. And this is my kind of, if I'm trying to forecast how things are changing and with rapid adoption of new technologies and how that's going, it's like that actually increases our need for all this stuff, right? So, people are now finding, "Hey, this phone," which is, we got a shout out to John DiTomasso, a guy we work with. He doesn't call it his phone because, one, you rarely use it as a phone, right? Your iPhone. But he calls it, "This is your teacher," because it's teaching you whether you realize it or not. It's teaching behavior. And I'm like, "That's genius." But the idea is, there's now more of a need for these type of things that we're talking about than there has been before, because we had all that stuff, right? We had groups; we had this. But because we become so focused and we create this life on social media that, I mean, we're missing all of these very basic key elements. And we go about it in different manners. So, you're talking about literally the same, when we talk about some of the things we do, we literally go, "Hey, here's what that means psychologically, physiologically, and sociologically." And that's literally everything you just described and how we have those connections and moving forward.

And one of the sayings, of course, it came through, you know, during COVID, is obviously exasperating a lot of these situations. It's showing people what we're missing because we don't have good coping skills as a society as a whole. Not just the health concerns, but we can't handle this adversity very well together. We're not banding together because, some people like to say, "Hey, we're all in this together." And my father would always remind me, "Well, we're all in this at the same time." You know what I mean? I'm like, "Yeah, you're right." But if we could see it as, "We're all in this together," I think a lot of, like you talk about, that petty divisiveness, political issues, a lot of that stuff will go away if we can look across at each other and go, "Oh, wow, you're a stressed-out human being just like I am. Oh, okay, high five. Let's figure this out."

That's the, I don't want to name the Navy Seal that brought it up, Brian, but a great Navy Seal that Brian and I work with, that we love and respect and admire, said the difference about what Greg and Brian bring is they're always talking about the similarities, not about the differences, because if you want to sit there and bring up the differences all the time, you get a laundry list of just argument points, right?

And I would caution everybody listening, think of this for just a minute. A diamond: great pressure over time creates diamonds. A pearl: a great amount of friction, a very small pebble of friction over a long period of time creates a pearl. And those are things that we want. We want those as our goals. But if you go to the store and buy a clam or an oyster and just start banging on it with a 20-pound sledge, you're not going to get the same results. So, it's going to take the gift of time and distance, and it's going to get, sometimes calling somebody, "This is part one of suicide prevention." Have that network of friends that you can know that you can call. If I'm ever having a bad day, I leech on Marren because I know he's going to be laser-focused in his response. He's going to tell me what's going on. Darian, you became my friend a week ago, and you're going to be my friend for the rest of my life. And I know that I can always reach out to you and that you're going to give me some sage wisdom and advice. This is what helps. This is where that tribe needs to be. Brian, what you're talking about too is the reason that there's so much trouble with COVID is we're thinking of the United States, of the world, as our tribe. We can't start there; that's too vast. Even our brain, that's like laying on your back and looking up and saying, "See that star?" What are you thinking? You can't do that. We've got to start small. We've got to start closer to home. And I think that incremental change will get us that pearl or that diamond, no doubt.

So, when I went to one of your pages, the first word in one of your blogs you were writing was "accountability." And I was like, "Alright, it's got me. I'm in. I'm in." So, very much into that. It's an issue, and we all struggle with it in different ways. And one of the things I always do is, I try to, anytime there's a situation, whether it's I get a briefing that we did that didn't go well, or I didn't get back from a client, or I get an argument with my wife or something happens, I'm like, "Alright, one of the first things I try to do is like, 'How is this my fault?'" And I kind of do that list of like, "Did I cause this to happen, or what was the situation?" And that's what I, and it's very, it's easy to do it in some ways, like, "Hey, you know what? My bad. I screwed up." But then when you get into a lot of personal areas, it's like that transferring that over, you go, "No, it's not my fault my wife and I got in an argument." When it's like, "Yeah, is it though?" Right? So, what are the steps you take for accountability? How do you keep yourself accountable?

I think just having systems. I have a lot of systems in place that keep me being on track. You know, I just, I don't know, I'm not a person that flails about different things. And it's like, "Well, I don't know, I'll set these appointments up and I'll do it this way, and maybe I'll think about it. I'll overdo it later on." I'm not a "do it later on" person. Like, "Oh, it happens at night. I need to take care of this right now. I need to get it done." And then just have good people in my life who help keep me accountable. That's a big part of fitness. I think for a lot of people that work with me is they like the accountability. It's on the schedule. They know that we're together and we're leaning on each other with that. So, I think accountability from other good people is really important, and having good systems is also really important.

But I hate to cut this off, guys. This is pretty good. I have to go, but I appreciate you guys so much. I appreciate your time so much.

We want to talk in the future. We were getting to that point, and I was like, "Oh, man, my bad." So, I appreciate your time, Dr. Darian Parker. We're going to have all the details in the episode details. We're going to have links so they can find you. I'll give you the last word if you'd like, for some sage advice for anyone, or some message that you'd like to get out.

Yeah, just be good to each other. Look at another person and realize they're just like you. I mean, they have a mother, they have a father, they have a brother or sister, or they're taking care of someone. See them as another human. Don't let your humanity be pulled apart. It's what makes us unique in the universe, our humanity. So, remember that.

I appreciate it. Those are great words. Don't forget, everyone, that training changes behavior.