L.O.G. 141Left Of the NEXT bang

Hello and welcome to the video version of The Human Behavior Podcast. I'm Brian Marren, the host and creator of the show. As always, I will be joined by human behavior expert Mr. Greg Williams, who the show is affectionately named after. On the show, we discuss different topics through the lenses of what we call Human Behavior Pattern Recognition Analysis. If you'd like to find out more about what that is, please check the links in the episode details and go to our website to learn more. Please don't forget to follow us on social media; the links are also in the episode details. And hit the Like and Subscribe button to help support our work. Thanks for tuning in, and we hope you enjoy the show.

All right, Greg, we'll go ahead and get started. First of all, good morning.

Good morning.

Busy week this week. Busy week. We've had some interesting sidebar conversations already this morning. Things have already been going at about 100 miles an hour for us right now as we approach a couple of weeks of travel coming up here very, very shortly. So, everyone listening and following, please follow us on social media, on Instagram, especially because we pop it up live there on our trips and everything, and you can check us out, and we're going to do more.

But busy week, but we want to talk about a case that actually just happened. So, it was literally like the other day, right? It was Monday, early, early, early Monday morning from the East Coast in Philly. So, Greg, I'll go ahead and just kind of go over the case of what happened, and then we can kind of go from there.

So, what happened was in Philadelphia, a nursing assistant shot and killed a coworker inside Jefferson University Hospital. It was early Monday morning before fleeing in a U-Haul and being shot in some subsequent exchange of gunfire with police. So, this guy, 55-year-old Stacey Hayes, drove to the hospital around 12:08 AM in a U-Haul, walked to the ninth floor. He was wearing blue scrubs, shot his coworker who has been identified as 43-year-old nursing assistant Andre James. Surveillance video reportedly shows Hayes walking up behind James, opened fire while he (James) was seated at his workstation, and then he (Hayes) kept firing as James tried to run away. So, this guy, Hayes, was armed with multiple weapons, fled the hospital in a U-Haul.

So then, this is when a call goes out saying, "You know, there's at Jefferson, ninth floor, there's an employee shot, there's an active shooter. It's going to be on the ninth floor. They've got a male with scrubs and a mask. Ninth floor, nine west." So, that call goes out. So, let's fast forward a little bit to around 1:25 AM. So, a little over an hour later, police officers in the area were flagged down by a passerby right outside of a school, which is four miles from the hospital. So, the person reported that there was a male in scrubs with a weapon, or a long gun, who was potentially firing rounds in the air or just had a gun. So, reports were a little unclear, but there was a gun involved, and he was either shooting in the air and/or shooting, or at least had a gun, right?

So, arriving officers encountered the male suspect who then began shooting at them, and a total of four officers returned fire. Two of the officers were struck by gunfire from the suspect. So, one of the officers was hit in the right elbow; he's critical but stable. He's expected to survive and be okay. Another one was struck in the nose, was treated and released. So, the suspect was struck in the upper body and the neck, and from this initial report, we learned that he was wearing body armor and was carrying multiple weapons in addition to the long gun, which was believed to be an AR-15. He's also carrying some form of semi-automatic handgun. So, the suspect is in critical condition but expected to survive.

So, that's the basic incident I just want to start with right there. There are a few a little bit more details about the case, but not much, obviously, just because it just happened. So, that's what we have to go on that was reported, and there are some police statements that were taken from in the report. So, it was all, that's, this is just open source. You really can't find much more than that as of this morning. Literally, before we started recording, I tried to check again, and there are just no updates yet. So, it happened.

So, Greg, we can start with a number of things, right? So, one, you're talking about workplace violence. And actually, the day before, a couple of days before that in Philadelphia, there was another situation of work-based violence where a guy was killed at work. This is something that we see. Some places have better response and protocol measures for it than others. Typically, a hospital likely does, because they have more protocols, policies, and procedures. They understand training a little bit more than a conventional or private sector industry. It's healthcare.

And then, our big thing is, a lot of people say, "Well, look, you're never going to see this coming. You're never going to know when this is going to happen," which is not true. But I understand what they mean when they say, "You know, like you're working somewhere and someone comes in, or you're at the hospital visiting your family, and someone walks in wearing scrubs, starts shooting up the place." And I understand that, but I kind of want to then maybe we take this one, Greg, from, "Okay, this is the call goes out. This is happening." Sure, we can still do predictive analysis in real time at the event of what's going on while there's an active shooter situation, correct?

Right. I would love doing that. I would say that we need to rewind the tape just a little bit, Brian. And you and I discussed something about how to approach cases like this. Okay. First of all, that's good.

Yeah, let's frame it.

First of all, we don't talk about all cases that come up. We talk about the ones that have human behavior pattern recognition analysis value—ones that could have been predicted. And we also talk about things that the others don't talk about. I'll give you a perfect example of that: I could care less the number of weapons, what type of weapon, or what type it was. You're the same way, right? Body armor speaks to intent.

Yes.

Okay, I like that. But, the other thing out of all the stuff that struck me on this case and the request for information that we filed: the number one thing I want to know about is the U-Haul. Because there's a bunch of possibilities that come up with the U-Haul. Was it a U-Haul because they're moving into a new place or moving out of a place? Is it a couple? Was this agitated? Were they at work? Was the guy stressed from moving, right?

Right.

And the other thing is, my initial thing is with the U-Hauls: what else is inside that U-Haul?

Precisely.

And now, let's go one step further, because that was Shelley's first thing when this broke. She told me that. But Shelley also told me another thing, a typical Shelley thing, is, "Hey, it's much easier to steal a U-Haul truck." I said, "Wow, that's..." And she's like, "Well, you can also steal a U-Haul truck a lot easier than..." Like, "You're serious?" "Yeah, it's easier to rent them."

Yes.

And then it's "failed to return rental property," not "stolen auto." I don't want to give anybody out there an idea, but to me, to me as a human behavior profiler, Brian, those are the real issues that I wanted to dig deep into the article. Now, we won't talk about those today; we just planted the seed. But I would love you to start from, can you give me real quick, why those are more like the... you said "body armor speaks to intent and the U-Haul truck." So, like, why is that so?

Yeah, to me, some associations sometimes have a break with reality. If we have a psychological break with reality, we're sometimes prone to escalate the level of violence. Now, if there was a situation that happened and this was the "last straw," so to speak, psychologically, then what I want to know is, what were those steps "left of that" before that occurred? Ramping up that others could have seen, others at his workplace. For example, let's say that the guy upstairs, and I'm sorry for Andre James being dead, and I don't know enough about you, sir. And I suggested earlier that maybe they were in a relationship. I had no bearing on the case whatsoever. I'm going through a panacea of possible decisions, a palette of potential colors. One of which is, let's say that there was stress over moving in or moving out. We know there's a tremendous amount of stress.

Yeah, Brian, so how did that stress manifest itself? Because making the decision to punch you or to go into my bedroom and put on body armor is a huge leap. You get what I'm trying to say?

Oh, yeah.

We're not talking about a hair's breadth anymore. Now, we're talking about all of these demonstrable tactics—for lack of a better word—tactics, techniques, procedures (TTPs) that I went through to ramp up to get where I'm going, right? If it's a case of rage, those things happen automatically. I've yet to see a rage case, a road rage case, where the guy reached in the back seat and put on a vest or donned a helmet or something. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

Right.

Because that break with reality is so sudden and so brutal, so violent, that you don't think logically. This was a logical thinker, Brian. He navigated a hospital in the early morning hours in scrubs. Scrubs speak to intent.

Yeah.

Why? Because he did not want to get found out.

Yes.

So, we have two huge ones: that's scrubs, unknown about the U-Haul. But can you imagine that piece, that that's going to solve the case for us, right? And stop with the motive. The motive was to kill, and he killed. Now, I'll say that, I don't want to go to the end of the story first, but Brian, your suggestion at the end of the story seems to me that "suicide by cop" was the desired way out for this guy. Now, somebody's going to say that's dichotomous because he's wearing a vest. No, it's not. He stopped four miles from the hospital, gets out, and shooting up in the air. Do you get what I'm saying? And waits for the police to get there. No protracted foot pursuit, no protracted vehicle pursuit. Do you get what I'm saying? And you and I are usually so closely aligned on these, I can't find any error on this one. I really can't find something that's going to be a revelatory element that we go, "Wow, didn't consider that!" You see where I'm going?

No, that, and that's a good point, in that that's what we mean by that—that in stride, what's likely going to happen next? You're responding. That call goes out, "Okay, we now just had an active shooter in the middle of the night." You know, this isn't during the day, like really early morning. He was wearing scrubs. He has multiple weapons on him. They probably didn't know at the time he was wearing body armor, but either way, you can tell there's an organization level to it. It speaks to intent on what he was attempting to do. Then, all of a sudden, you get flagged down saying, "Hey, there's a guy over there wearing scrubs and a gun, and he was firing into the air."

Yep.

Okay. Four miles from the hospital. So, you can go very far.

Right. And guess what? That also allows the blood to cool. He drove away. He stopped somewhere. So, a normal, rational person would have said, "What have I done? What hath God wrought? Now I need to call somebody and go, 'I just killed my best friend.'"

And that's a good point, because I'll give you an example of, you know, we had the case of the guy who got pissed at his neighbor. Rage took over, grabs the gun, kills him, walks back in the house, sets the gun down, tells his wife, "We need a lawyer, and you've got to call the police. I just killed our neighbor."

Exactly. So, that's right. You see? Okay, listen. How many times a day do you think that the average person has a break with reality? I think it's much more than we like to talk about. I'll give you an example: playing a video game, we have a break with reality. We know it's not real, but we're immediately immersed. You should see Dog and I play Call of Duty. You know what I'm trying to say? Because she's fantastic.

Yeah.

And she's going like, "Coming up!" You know what I'm saying? "She's reloading!" You know, she's saying these things to me. We don't have the headsets or anything; we're in the room, and she's completely gone. So, somebody was at the door, or the phone rang, okay, you're not going to break her stride because she's in the game to win it. She's on level 40-something, which is unheard of, and dragging me along. So, there's a temporary break with reality, right?

You go to Booth's house, a boy or a girl, and you're, "Hey, baby, this is going on and stuff." Whether you like it to acknowledge it or not, some people are, they live in that fantasy world, Brian. So, a break with psychological reality can be detrimental. It can be a good thing; sometimes people are creative at that. What we're talking about is a break with reality that has to do with consequences in real time. So, now I'm hurting somebody. Now I'm molesting somebody. Now I'm raping somebody. You see what I'm trying to say? Those are breaks as well. Calculated sometimes, sometimes incidental to other things that are going on. But this wasn't a break where consequences didn't assign. He knew what he was doing.

He had to go and get a vehicle. He had to drive there in the early morning hours, which matched the shift likelihood with Andre, right? He then had to hide because people would have likely known him had he been there before. How do I know he'd likely been there before? He navigated to the ninth floor, didn't he? You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Could you get to the ninth floor in the duty station at 1:30 in the morning? You get what I'm talking about?

And that was one of even the initial reports: he accessed areas that are only accessed by employees, meaning you have to have some sort of access. Now, which makes it an insider threat, right? Because even if I use, I don't work at the hospital with you, Brian, but we're in a relationship, meaning that we live in the same apartment, let's say. If you go through that door with the Chicago flag, you'll end up right here. It's Narnia. But the idea is that if I knew that you had an identification card there or a previous swipe card or something, and I decide to use that against you at some point later, that's an insider threat. That's a classic definition of an insider threat, and it's, that's what we have here is a likely...

Right.

Now, somebody's cringing and going, "How can you make that statement?" I'd make that statement in front of a jury. You know why? What are the chances that this guy randomly chose the ninth floor of the hospital, darted to this guy sitting in a chair? Come on, Brian, is that likely?

Exactly. Exactly. And that's where we measure it. It's good we measure things on likelihood, right? Yes, there's, certainty is only so much, right? You, you can only get so much certainty. It's a measurement of likelihood. What's more likely, what's less likely? And then you have to go on that. And then now, as new elements or new artifacts and evidence come into light, you can then change that likelihood of what it is based upon what new and relevant information you have, right?

So, the easy way to do that, Brian, for you guys listening out there, and thank you for listening: solid, liquid, gas. Remember, science covers all of them, but they're not all in the same state at the same time. Then, if they are, it's a transition and, you know, temperatures and thermobaric things. What am I talking about there? I'm talking about in this case, likelihood is just as scientific as any other certainty that you could get to. Why? Because more cases are solved on probable cause, okay? More reasonable suspicion, circumstantial evidence. Do you get what I'm trying to say? Because none of those are a level of certainty, Brian. "We believe this is occurring." No, that's the whole scientific hypothesis, that's the same theory. You're solid, liquid, gas, right? It can change from one state to another based on changing conditions in the environment, and we have to be ready to change with it, right?

Okay. So, now let's kind of go to that. Would you mind starting with a dispatch call?

Yeah, that's a really good one.

So, let's do that. So, this is, and I'm quoting this from a news article that they got from it, and it just said, "Sorry, I just want to make sure that..." Yeah, here it is. The call goes out. So, the dispatch call was, "At Jefferson, ninth floor," saying, "There's an employee shot. Be advised, inside Jefferson Hospital, we have an active shooter. It's going to be on the ninth floor. They've got a male with scrubs and a mask. Ninth floor, nine west." So, that's obviously...

What an incredible description! Much better than the normal stuff that "coppers" (police officers) did, or dispatch of "shots fired at the hospital, screaming in the background." The other thing is too, it's given a specific location, which obviously helps, because a hospital campus can sometimes be massive, depending on how big the hospital is, right? So, that's what goes out initially, right?

So, let's throw physiological first. So, everybody that is on the police dispatch midnight shift is immediately amped because they've been to that hospital. They know the triage nurses, they've been in the ER with a suspect. You get where I'm going there?

Yep.

Okay. So, that's one single hair of the paintbrush that I'm going to be holding up here. Then you talk about dispatch putting out that call. She's cutting right to the chase when she said the hospital name. She didn't say, "Hospital Center 1420 Eastwood."

Yeah, yeah.

She knew, and that leads me to believe—a reasonable person, well, I'm not that reasonable—many people are that are listening, that everybody knows, and that's what it's colloquially known as, right? Now, when she says "active shooter," there is no more realistic "attention getter" than "active shooter" in our society. So now, every cop, every supervisor, and even the people that are at home, sitting in their chair, that got off afternoons, that are still listening to the radio. Yeah, because when you work news, you know what I'm saying? You're always saying, "Hey, what are those midnight guys catching? Hope we didn't miss something." Just like day shift, we had the most heartless day shift... I don't want to call them losers. But the idea was that I would listen and, certainly, anybody that worked mids to see what we missed. If day shift was taking burglaries or car thefts, I mean, we failed. I took that shit personally. So now you've got some of those people that are calling in going, "Hey, where do I need to be?" And dispatch is saying, "Shut up for a minute, I got incoming information," right?

So now security's activated within the hospital, Brian. What do you think level they're at? We know we already have a situation. We don't just have "hearing shots fired" or somebody's suggesting that shots are fired. We have an injury, most likely to gunfire. Okay. So, holy shit. I can only imagine physiologically. And this is why, Brian, we deal with academies all the time. We deal with training directors all the time, and they're all like... and they drag their feet and they worry about the money. If you in your academy, if you as an FTO (Field Training Officer) in your scout car, are not training about the physiological things that are going to occur before you get to the scene, on the way to the scene, then you're not conducting training. So, that's my point. And you can do that, not over the top. You can do that in stride, even during a real incident. In fact, looking over at your partner and saying, "Okay, take a couple of deep breaths, Tom or Sherry. This is what we've been training for." Do you get what I'm trying to say? "Stick with me. The radio is down until we get whatever advice is going to happen." But it has to be constant and consistent, Brian. It has to be on the range. You have to rehearse that on the range.

I give you an amazing conundrum on the range that reaches both physiological and legal, okay? Brian Marren, who everybody knows and loves, Brian Marren, is the officer that's involved in the shooting. It's incumbent upon Brian to go over in handcuffs, even though he's quite certain that the person is deceased that he just shot. He's also, it's incumbent upon him to try to render aid, you know what I'm saying? Unless the person's missing their head. If there's any chance, any reasonable chance that that person can be revived, he's got to do it. But then defense attorneys are going to try to jump on both: one, "cops didn't have the right to shoot," illegal procedural, and by rendering aid, "you destroyed evidence. So, you went over to give first aid to cover whatever." Do you see the conundrum that's going on? Here's the second part of that, Brian: so, what is that? If we were trying to talk about a supervisory interdiction and training, wouldn't you want your boss to come in and sit down or take a knee at duty roll call and explain that well before we have a potential shooting at a beautiful, by the way, we love Philly, and we absolutely love Philly, but you get where I'm going, Brian. It's all these little things might take five minutes each, but if you don't discuss them, then now the prosecuting attorney's sitting across the table from you going, "Yeah, did you consider this?" You know, you're being deposed. So, we talked about psychological, a temporary break on both sides. We talked about the physiological.

And I would add to that, the physiological state that Stacey Hayes is in. His cover blown, now walking down the hallway with the, you know, smoking rifle, trying to get back to his flipping U-Haul. Think of the stress that was on him at that point. So, here's one for the coppers too, physiologically, Brian: you encounter him in the hallway, is there going to be a lot of rational thought process, even though you're screaming, "Drop that weapon!"? Yeah, what did he just do? Yeah, he just shot. So, what's he likely going to do? You better take cover. You get where I'm going, right?

And that, that's it. That's, that's what we're kind of getting into now, is that during, during that, that moment, right? Of what's, what's, "Let's get left of the next bang." What is that going to... there's a great way of thinking, "This isn't going to end right here. He's still, you know, he's not in custody, and he's still alive, so this situation is not over," right? So, you have the report of him, like you just said, "All right, you encounter something like this, what's this person likely going to do?" You don't have to know whether or not they had killed anyone yet, or he was wearing body armor, or any of that stuff. It's what has he, or what has he just done? So, what is he likely going to do next?

Now, there's, there's a difference that people want to get into sometimes when different types of shooting situations, where, you know, what are they likely going to do when the police get there? And that's, it's kind of dependent, like, like school shooters typically, either when the police show up and there's no one left for them to kill, they either kill themselves or they give up voluntarily. There's no...

And there's a one-third choice, with the one-third choice is they go to a location known to them and kill themselves. For clarity, I would that would be a two-part on the committing suicide.

But, you know, that's different than these, than, you know, an active shooter situation or something like this, right? Yeah. So, so I, you can't really make that determination in stride other than based on what you know they've done so far. So, yeah, I think that's a, that's a good point.

So, but go back to your point. You made such an incredible point, and the viewers that are with their yellow pads taking notes, and I hope you're not driving while you're listening, but if you are, pull over. Brian's talking about "left of the next bang." So, we have "left of the bang," we have "just left of the bang," we have "at bang," we have "just right of bang," and then we have "left of the next bang," right? And all those little places where we can interject training and education and sit down and take a knee and on duty and off duty and all that great stuff we talk about. But let's go back to that "left of the next." How many bangs do we have here?

We have the bang: what other critical incident was that originated, the break in reality? We'll only go that far back. We have the conscious thought to load a weapon, to put on body armor, and to drive to another location. We have the conscious effort to mingle with staff and secrete weapons into a hospital in the middle of the night. We have ninth floor, surreptitiously sneaking up on Andre. We have shooting him, and intent demonstrated when he shot him even after he ran. He didn't shoot to scare, Brian. He didn't shoot for any other reason than he continued. Now, what do we got? Okay, that's the... all those are bangs. You hear what I'm trying to say? So, that means there's a "left of" each one of those incidents. Now, we've got him having to leave and get into his vehicle and go away. You see all those moments?

So, when somebody, when you explain to people, and you do such a great job of the continuum, the publican of where "bang" lies, and it might just be the flat tire on the way to work, these are all "left of the next bang" moments that we have to capitalize. Is he dead on the ninth floor? Is he still moving through the hospital? Where is security? I don't want to shoot a security guard because he's running through the hallways with it, right? Are the security guards in uniform? How do I know? Is there a color of the day? You see all those things. Like, I know that this hospital had a protocol for just such a domestic violence in progress, let's call it that. We don't know what it was, but it was an act of employee violence. It appears to be. They had a protocol. Do you think it included a person dressing in scrubs? Do you think it is where I'm going?

So, and now what are we at? Now we're at the... now we're no longer operational when we talked about dispatch and getting there and doing that. Now we're at the tactical level. We're at the boots on the ground level. Did they? And what's the strategic level thinking on this, Brian? What did the hospital do preceding this? So, my God, so many balls to juggle on this Tuesday morning. So, it's nebulous.

So, yeah. So, let's, let's say laser focus then on kind of like during this situation, because who's going to be responding to the situation? Yes, you have the hospital staff, security, and then you have law enforcement that are going to come in. So, he's now, he's killed his partner, or this person—I'm not totally sure on the relationship—but anyway, and he's now left, or he's now leaving the hospital and has left the hospital. So, you kind of talked about some "what if" that encounter happens, you know, when you walk in and show up, whether you're security arriving, or you're a nurse working there, or a doctor, or the initial police officers responding. I mean, it's at that time of night too. I mean, it's almost likely that there would be a police officer there for some other reason, of course, bringing in a suspect, interviewing, something, something. I mean, that's always happening at the hospital, especially in the middle of the night.

Yeah. So, one more thing I just want to add, that that's well within what could likely happen. The situation you just brought up, where all of a sudden, bam, we have this shit. The report already came out. People heard it. People knew what it was. People were able to describe who it was, or a description of the person, not a lot, meaning it's not just, "Hey, did you hear something? Hey, someone's hearing some noises." So, it's very clear at that point what's going on, which would then inform your response.

So, we have inductive and deductive reasoning that are taking place too, especially with your trained personnel inside the hospital and responding to the hospital. I'll give you an example of this at its lowest level: I inferred, then deduced from the cues that were going on, "This is likely a targeted attack." Why? Because they didn't say multiple casualties.

Nope.

They didn't say ninth floor, sixth floor, first floor. Do you get what I'm trying to say? So, Brian, those things, he didn't shoot volumes. He didn't shoot anyone on the way in or on the way out. He went, and think about that, for one person, and that was it. And enough to the point where the person tried running away and they continued shooting them, and then they left. Okay. So, how many times do we consider a lockdown? So, lockdown in this case would have kept the shooter inside with the weapon system. Have we considered the ramifications of that, of doing again? Consequences are both sides. Consequences are for the legal staff of the hospital, for the safety of the patients, for the safety of the city, for the safety of the officers. Again, I apologize, Brian, but I just went flashlight on you again. I know we're trying to stay laser-focused, but none of these cases are simple. Somebody wants to make it simple. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

No, but we don't needlessly complicate a situation. But here, I'm saying, use your logic when you're going there. Well, are shots still being fired, right? And now it's not targeted, and this guy's got to be taken out right now.

No, no. You're giving it from, from, from multiple perspectives. So, let's just be clear on that perspective. Like you said, the hospital perspective: what we did, like, if they had locked everything down, now this guy feels cornered. Now that might even ramp him up even more based on what he's just trying to get the hell out of there. He's done. He's at this point done with what he came to do.

Yeah, and that's proven by the fact that he showed up, went there, and then left, right? Immediately. Like we said, like everything we just discussed and what happened in the case. So, like you're saying, these responses can't be, there is no, one-stop shop, "This is the decision we're going to make, this is how we're going to do it every single time," because they're unique. So, we can have that framework, but and that, that's, that's difficult to do, because now they have to do what? They have to ensure the safety of all the patients. So, they have to go and then they have to actually administer care to the victim of the who got shot. So, like there's all of these other persons who might also be the suspect. Do you see what I'm saying? So, that, that's what I mean is that now, how does that, is a shootout where he returns fire to the person and then who, you know, I mean, there's all of these different spirals that can occur.

Well, and then add to that just one more. We're talking about a person in scrubs. So, it could have been a "lying in wait" crime where the person bought the scrubs, secreted themselves, and waited days for this opportunity. That's unlikely, but it could have happened. It could have been a disgruntled employee that was working and said, "You know what, I got a gun in my locker. This is it."

Okay. With it now we have those. Well, don't we?

Yeah, but though, and again, to speak to the likelihood of that, it's low, because those attacks look different, right? The anger is different.

Yeah, well, the anger, "I just got fired, I'm going to go out to my car and come back and shooting," is very, very different than this, what this situation that we're occurring. So, so it's important to distinguish these when we're talking about them and when we're analyzing those cases, because of that. Because we don't want to generalize a response or, in order to understand these, you have to get into the nuances so that you can identify which one it is in stride.

So, that kind of leads, leads to this next part, right? So, now he's gone. He's left the hospital. And, you know, obviously, this is everyone working that night anywhere, and in terms of emergency services, knows that this is happening, right? This has gone on over the radio, right? We're now allocating at an operational level what resources they have to respond. For the police, there's a crime scene, obviously, that has to be investigated. They're still probably securing the hospital. There's probably people doing their security, doing the search from the top floor inside every car in the parking garage.

Exactly.

Yeah. So, that's all happening. And meanwhile, everyone else on the periphery who's not at the hospital obviously knows about it and says, "Okay, this happened. This guy, there is a shooter, which means he's not in custody, and he's not dead. So, this situation is still active," right? So, at large, you've got an officer driving and then gets flagged down, and someone goes, "Hey, there's someone over here by the school, by the truck. He's got a gun. He's wearing scrubs." So, ding, ding, ding! Guns, scrubs, shooting, and U-Haul.

Yeah. Which was reported early on, right?

And so, right away, right there, you can make the determination of likelihood that this is likely the person who had something to do with this shooting an hour ago, right? I mean, in that moment in time. So, that should be what you use to inform your decisions on how we're going to approach the situation. So, I mean, so let's, let's go from that moment, Greg. You just get, you get flagged down by someone on the street, and this, that's what they tell you, and it's right over there. How do I then stay "left of that next bang?"

So, first things first, make sure you slow time down. You must control the operational tempo (op tempo); never let the suspect control it. So, if you think back on the timeline that Brian created, which is a factual timeline based on the artifacts and evidence we were given, we have to think, "This is likely a targeted shooter. He's likely alone. He's likely not going to another hospital to shoot somebody else. He's fleeing from this incident." Why? Because he didn't shoot people randomly on the way out. He didn't drive down the freeway firing. He didn't leave a manifesto right to Andre James. So many things speak to this is one guy. You get what I'm saying? That's now done. So then, Brian's rules attach: Is he dead in the hospital parking lot? No. So, likely, he's still active. Is he probably headed home to commit suicide there? Commit suicide? Well, if he had chosen to commit suicide, he had plenty of opportunity. So, this guy's going to wait. Okay, he's going to be one of those rare guys that waits for you because it was a targeted shooting. And now, only two things are likely: either he's going to see you come, drop the weapon and go, "Don't know what I was thinking! Oh my God, what have I done?" Or what's he going to do, Brian? He's going to shoot it out till you kill him and take him out of his misery, or during that protracted shootout, he's going to shoot himself. So, when you say, "It's likely him," I would say unless you're at a hospital convention that also is selling U-Hauls and everybody was issued an AR-15, you're probably right. So, likelihood doesn't mean exactitude; it means that it fits on many layers.

And now we need to slow the time down. Now we need to cordon off. We need to make sure this is where you need to speed the "tac strips," Brian, not in the center of a high-speed pursuit. So, now what you do is you set up a couple of strategic tac strips in case the person tries to leave. Now you implement your strategies and your protocols and try to initiate communications. You get what I'm trying to say? Because what we don't want is we don't want the person lifting up and moving their observation post or command post somewhere else.

Or they're... So, I, I like it. Right in real time, right now, what you have in the palm of your hand and inside of a police car as well, is you have the ability to take an overhead view of what that, not, not live necessarily, but meaning you can pull up your phone and do a Google Map and go, "What's in that area? Okay, we can set up here, here, and here. Can I approach this area, stay at a distance, pull out a pair of "binos" (binoculars), and see what's going on?"

And add to that, you're, you're so smart, because think about this: Am I still seeing mission focus? Is the vehicle now pulled up in front of that school or in the elementary school parking lot? Has it pulled into a place where the crowd is going to start coming in, as it's done? Now that speaks directly to, "Oh my gosh, U-Haul Ryder truck, we're talking about a potential bomb. They're getting pulled in. Are they back and all that stuff? Am I stopping here to ambush you because now I've drawn you into an ambush? I did the whole thing at the hospital to get you close enough to come up to the vehicle, and then I'm going to detonate." You get where I'm going?

Well, yeah, and this is what, but this is what happened. You brought up the psychological, physiological, you know, components of what occurs in this. But what would you know, if I, if you right now, like I said, I'm throwing it to you with your law enforcement experience, Greg, and someone pulls, someone flags you down and says this, what immediately happens? Boom! There's that...

Oh, yeah, yeah, there's that's theological, there's everything through the roof.

So, what does that do to your decision-making?

I'm the guy that's right. I'm the guy. Now you see what I'm trying to say? So, I'd love for somebody to show up and go, "I've got it from here." Remember Nakatomi Towers? "It's just a fire alarm." You know what I'm saying? "Welcome to the party, pal!" Yeah, okay, it's a crazy trip. And for everyone listening, it's a Christmas movie. But think about that. Okay. So, we've just escalated to the most important thing in the world for me and my career is right in front of me. And yet I'm telling everybody to slow down. I'm telling everybody to take a knee, take a breath, check your 5 and 25. You get what I'm trying to say? Am I being lured into an ambush? That's a huge consideration. Second thing, am I far away from this truck if it does go? Am I far enough away from that rifle if the guy does start shooting? What's our first instinct? And Marines did it all the time, Brian, during, we want to get right up on top of something.

And it's an important distinction right here, because we're laying out how to identify this stuff in stride, right? That's very different than, "He's still in the hospital roaming, killing, killing everyone." That's a different situation. Now, that's the point where we go, "You know, this is, now we have to go in now." Yeah, because this is, and we have to kill, rightly, because he's not, kill because he's not cooperating. And it's, you know, this isn't like, and that, this is an important distinction too, because a lot of times what happens is all of these situations get lumped into the same big old bucket, and then it gets really confusing because you can't understand it. So, it's very different than the, like we just said, the, like we, you know, the San Jose workplace one where the guy comes in, he's just killing everyone that he can find. That's a very, very different situation.

Yeah, yeah.

Than this right here.

Well, I want to carry out that, yeah, I'll give you that one too. So, Kroger guy. Everybody's been to a type of Kroger. It doesn't matter if it's Performance or whatever.

No, no, no, this one's in, in Nashville.

Oh, okay. Right outside of Nashville. You remember that one?

Yeah.

So, every one of these type of stores has a place where they sell stuff. Like our branch here at City Market has a little area where you can come in and get sushi that's fresh-made a couple of days a week. They also have a little area where they cook fried chicken. So, we don't have a lot of fast food places, right? We have McDonald's and we have an Arby's, you know what I'm saying? And a Domino's, we actually have a Domino's Pizza. But all the other ones came and went. Sonic's came and went, Dairy Queen came and went. So, in the City Market, where you can go in there and buy these wonderful things, and a deli person that's cooking. Okay. They had the same thing in Nashville, and the guy that did the subcontract for the sushi thing ends up having whatever disagreement, corporate or otherwise, and they say, "You're done. Take your knives, literally, and go home." Hours later, he comes back, shoots the first ten people he sees on the way in, including employees and the people that are just shopping. Goes to his place of work up until that day, and shoots himself. We're not seeing that. And we can take 52 cards in a deck and go through that deck really quickly, Brian, and give 18, 20, 52 examples of situations that ended in a specific way. So, if you have a likelihood meter, "This guy's likely the shooter. This guy's likely at his termination point. He hasn't fled from you yet. He hasn't run from you yet. And he's still got the weapons on him, and he's still got the armor and the scrubs on." So, here it is, this is Custer. Hate for the euphemism.

Yeah.

But this is Custer's Last Stand. Okay. How do you, Officer, want this to end? Now, understand who's controlling the op tempo? Of course, it's the suspect, right?

Yes. Yes. But, but doesn't he, doesn't have to, you don't have to let it. That's the point is, what does this guy... I think that's a great point. If I'm out here firing a weapon into the air, it means I don't care if anyone hears it or not. I don't care if I'm found, I don't care because whatever... certainly not. I don't care if that's at a, that's at a, you know, a wedding where you're firing an AK-47 into the air, you clearly don't care that anyone hears it. That's, that, that's the point. So, that's what I'm saying, is he, is he, he's pulling you into, he chose the suspect that shows that time and place, he's inviting you. But that's what I mean is, you're already behind the curve showing up. He chose that. So, how do I change that op tempo and gain that advantage to go, "Well, yeah, you're choosing this, but you know what? I'm going to choose the time. You're pulling me in here, but I can choose the response." So, now you just gave the answer.

Well, that's, that's gaining that tactical advantage, right? That's now taking place. It's gaining momentum. That's rather than responding to it, because now what are you getting? Now you're getting the suspect to respond to you. Because if you pull up 200 yards away and you pull out your binos (binoculars) and he can't see you yet, or he does see you, you still have time and distance right there, right? So, now I can, I can take that initiative from them, and I can start to change where that happens. I can put the lights on over here while it comes up from another angle with no lights. We can start to create all those different spirals of how to deal with it. The idea is to not rush right into it. I mean, and that's all of those metacognition means are kicking. Physiologically, you're like, "Oh, this is it! This is everything I've trained for. This is what everyone told me was going to happen one day, and now I'm in it!" And boom! What do you do? You just, it's exactly right, pedal on the right, and you're going barreling in there, and you're missing everything that's going on. But what do TTPs (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures) teach us to do? Yes, exactly that. You get what I'm trying to say?

So, you have to look, folks, we do not teach TTPs. You do, okay? You're the training experts. So, what we're doing is giving you suggestions of how to make your training better. So, what do we know to this point? I'll let you know something that we do know: this is one of those rare people that wanted their say and their way.

Yep.

Okay. We also know that there was some sort of subterfuge to get into that hospital. Yes, meaning some hidden, secret way. And it wasn't a passageway. Again, it wasn't the Narnia going in the back of the closet, Brian, wearing your goat leggings. But it was certainly something that the general public didn't have. He had the opportunity to kill a bunch, and he didn't. This is a strange, unique platypus. This isn't the regular duck that you've dealt with all these other years. So, you've got to immediately change that op tempo. You've got to stop going fast, you've got to slow it down, you've got to initiate the talk, you've got to show them that there's an overwhelming, massive force that has descended on them, and now it's time to hear your story. "Hey, whatever is done can be undone. Lie, truth, whatever you want to use." Yeah, that's you. But you've got to insert that wedge with the narrow end first.

But what do most coppers want to do, Brian? They want to come in there with the halogen, with the ram. They want to go right. And I'm not blasting coppers, no intent, but what I'm trying to say is, even in this situation, you had two out of the four coppers that engaged them with gunfire that were hurt. Is that the trade-off we're willing to make?

And, and I think that drives the point, is their, their, their lives aren't, aren't worth it in this situation. Meaning, you don't have that, you don't have to do that, right? You, you, you do, do not have to, to approach it that way, right? Unless what would happen, something catastrophic would have to happen. He does have a bomb, and he's also got four kids in the back of that van. Right? Don't act right. Those are that, that's why I'm not present here. That's why I brought up the situation. The person, if he was still walking through the hospital killing people, it was a contest. That's very, very different then. Yeah, very good.

Is that, is that the point, you have to rush in there and go be the, try to be the one man or one woman hero? Yeah, maybe. But, but, but that's so rare that, that absolutely so rare that we write books about it, we make films about it. You get what I'm trying to say? We build statues that people will tear down next year to those folks. Where, and this situation is almost more of a likely situation that of an active shooter, or domestic violence, or a workplace violence situation. Meaning, like, you, you can make that determination based on likelihood in real time and then inform, use that information to choose what your next course of action is going to be. What you, those decisions are going to be in that moment. And is that difficult to do?

Yeah. Yes, of course it is. But, but, you know, it, not if we stick to what we can prove, what we know, and what's likely going to occur next. Meaning, so, scientifically, using that to go on, it's better than just, "Well, we got to get in there and do it," because you're not using any information to make a decision, make an informed decision, right?

This is not unlike hostage negotiations at this point, where scientifically we can prove that the more he's talking, the less he's shooting, right? Assuming, assuming that you knew that it was a man, it didn't matter at that point, but we now know that it was Stacey Hayes. So, don't put words in my mouth, but what I'm trying to say is, as we come up, and this is more likely the suspect than not, and the vehicle is likely involved, and it's a mobile crime scene, and now the person has chosen to entrench, to dig in. Okay, then you've got to get on right away and establish a dialogue, you know? Even if you don't know the person's name, get them talking. "Hey, we understand this is bad. You've got to talk to us. Tell us what's happening." You know, you've got to have a reason. You know what I'm saying? "What was your reason, man? What's going?" I don't care what it is, to get that going. And again, I'm not teaching a TTP. I'm just spitballing, Brian. But I've got to get you talking because the one-way "Drop the gun!" that's not dialogue. Do you get what I'm trying to say? And if it's at that point, you've got to kill, you've got to shoot, or you've got to use de-escalation. I get that. But they weren't at that point. You see what I'm trying to say?

So, did Stacey set up the ambush as a self-looking ice cream cone, and as soon as they came, let's say the cops, and almost every single time the cops do everything right for me, well, they okay, yeah, but let's say that they did absolutely everything right, but Stacey had already decided, "When I get two or three cops there, I'm going to start shooting at them because I'm done." Okay, we don't know that, okay, but that's a likely outcome, isn't it? So, so we have to be prepared for that. Every training event that we do has to have three or four eventualities, right, where we can change the outcome. If not, then what's our brain going to do? Shoot, don't you? It's only going to have those two words. You get what I'm trying to say? In this situation, you know, yeah, it's right to shoot him.

And from the, oh yeah, no, absolutely. Again, that, that, I don't, when we talk about these cases, we're never bashing anyone. This is about training and how to create the spirals for this and how to create a better framework, how to a better decision-making framework in real time, right? And, and that to go to the training aspect of it is, how do you set up that scenario? Not how do you, you can do this scenario in real time going, "Okay, why are you making that decision? What are you basing it off of? What, what, what of this, the information that you know about this suspect and, and can you get more before you make that decision?" Because, and Brian just created, you can't. So, Brian's discussing human behavior. He's discussing the analysis of pattern recognition. But he just jumped in and said, "Human performance is a huge arena that has to be investigated specifically in this type of case, and the more you know, the better you're going to respond."

No, and, and then that's exactly it, is determining those factors. Like, we say it's two sides of the same coin: human performance on one, human performance or human behavior on the other side of the coin, right? And, and how do you replicate that in a training type scenario for this? Well, you can do that in an active, interactive, decision-making game of how do we play this? And you just add those injects. "Okay, what information are you using to inform that decision? Stop." Do you, if I can build those file folders. "Well, what about right now? Can you call and find out if we know any more from the crime scene to build your profile of this individual that you're going to contact right now?" Because that person getting information, they have to go in and contact in some way. But a contact doesn't have to be, like you said, driving up, jumping out, yelling, "Put the gun down!"

Binary, isn't it?

Well, I can sit 200 meters away and pull up my binos, all right? And get on the intercom and say, "Hey, buddy!" You know? I mean, and the, the idea is that's the time and distance we're talking about controlling that scene. And how do I actually do that?

If I was a training officer listening to what you just said, I would have written down on my yellow pad, "Situation Judgment Test." And I would have come up with, let's say, four. I'm spitballing again. So, Situation Judgment Test: I would set it up based on this incident for all the other officers. We'll notionally, I know I hate that word, acquiesce that all the things have occurred. "Now we're in the parking lot with a U-Haul and a guy." Okay, so you understand everything came before it. So you can study it and rehearse based on that. I'm not going to change any of the tangibles, but I'm going to say, "At this moment right now, that spiral number one is that he jumps in his truck once he sees the cops and he flees." Okay. "What's your protocol? I'd like you to give me three things," comma, "and how likely is it?" You get it? "Yeah, it's unlikely." "Well, how unlikely?" "It's highly unlikely, but I'm prepared for it." Spiral number two, do you get what I'm trying to say? "He's going to drop the gun, welcome you, 'I have no idea what I just did!'" All that other stuff. There's a whole bunch of stuff associated with that one. Number three, "He's going to turn and go, 'It's checkout time, Pop!'" Pop, pop! And you take him. And then the fourth thing, okay, is that he shoots himself immediately upon seizing. Whatever those are, Brian, do you understand what I'm trying to say now?

And then we have the likelihood at the bottom. Then we ask the magic question, "How can you influence that?" By delaying time, creating distance, using your binos, seeing if air is up, getting on other assets. You get what I'm trying to say? Now, if those more influence a decision that it's likely, look, I don't want Stacey Hayes to die because I'd love to hear his story. Yeah. Stacey Hayes may already be dead. Stacey Hayes may have begged for the shooting, or we might be completely wrong—I doubt it—but that likelihood is okay with me. If the shooter takes his own life, I'm okay with that, Brian, as long as it doesn't hurt a cop, it doesn't hurt citizens, it doesn't create havoc. You get what I'm trying to say? That cannot be undone. So, that Situation Judgment Test not only measures human performance, it measures critical thinking. Now you know that your coppers get it. So, how long would it take me to set that up, an on-duty roll call tomorrow? You get what I'm trying to say? And say, "Okay, so you think of this, and you think..." And I've got the dry-erase board behind me, and I read a couple of words and go, "Which is the most likely? Perfect. And how are we going to handle that? And what does our rules and regulations say? And what does our escalation of force say? And how would we de-escalate that, Brian?" That's what we're talking about. All this crap about defunding cops and refunding cops and changing cops and stuff. How many of them are, how many agencies are having this discussion right now, today, right? This is where they need to be, and you kiss my ass if you have a different decision that doesn't involve discussing things after they occurred in a format, a hot wash, and really saying, "These are the spirals that could have occurred. Where were you? Because your TTPs are not strong enough to promote critical thinking."

And they don't. They don't cover everything. TTPs, they're not supposed to. It's supposed to be, exactly, "These are the fundamentals you need to learn how to do things, and you need to get really, really, really good at these basic fundamental things and then apply those in various situations." It's like, can I give you one? Well, you don't need a new course for everything. Now someone's going to come up with a hospital CQB (Close Quarters Battle) course. Now they have, they have a vehicle CQB course, which is the dumbest thing ever, because it's the same thing of just small unit tactics and shooting. But, you know, anything, you've got to sell guns and ammo. You've got to sell the next magazine. But we get these very, very, we try to take these very tiny little situations and let's create a whole thing around it. But you can only use it in that situation. Well, then, it's crap. It's worthless. So, where's the, where's...

Yeah, exactly. No, I'm with you. So, listen, I'm a kid, I'm like six, seven years old, and old people had hard candy. Old people were old when they were 60, my age. Everybody had blue hair and was on the way to the nursing home. They were all retired. Nowadays, you're 90 and you're still running an industry. Thank God for that change, right? But back then, I was a little kid. I was wandering around. All the ladies were smoking at my mom's kitchen table, her with her German accent, setting out stuff, and there was a bowl of candies. So, I stole one of the candies, and it was the German candies that the hardest, the easiest way to describe it is like a Werther's Original. You know what I'm saying? It had kind of that coffee-malted flavor. I popped it into my mouth. I walked into the next room. In the time it took me at that age to walk into the next room, because I was stealing it, it got caught in my throat, completely occluded my windpipe, and I was cyanotic. I fell in the manner that I fell into the bathroom—that's where I was going to hide. Do you understand? Because now I was scared because I was choking it down. I fell, and I hit my diaphragm on the edge of the sink, which propelled the object out of my mouth, doing the baby Heimlich. You know what I'm trying to say?

Now you hear me talk about the Heimlich all the time. You know why? Because it's left an indelible horror memory, a night terror in my mind, because I almost died from that. And things that almost kill you tend to be in the front of your forefront of your mind the rest of your life. So, when you're out there listening going, "What the hell does that have to do with what we're talking about?" Listen, how many times did you almost have this incident? How many times were you almost faced with these problems? So, if you don't turn those into training and say, "If you haven't talked about that with your family, if you haven't reviewed the Heimlich before you go to the Dairy Queen, then by God, you're doing a disservice to every officer in your fleet." You as the commanding... look, two things, Brian: it's always leadership and training. And here's a situation where you could use both of those to gain an advantage over the next criminal episode or terror.

And that this is exactly that kind of wraps really everything that we're talking about and how to use it, especially the last 10-15 minutes here that we've been, like 10 minutes, has been discussing. And the, the only other thing on this case that I did want to hit on real quick, and we don't have to go into detail about it because this is the stuff that will come out after, you know, during the investigation, was this guy, it's already reported, recently suffering from mental health issues. He had weapons taken away from him before for psychiatric reasons. Then he got...

I did not know that, though.

Yeah. So, this is, he was no longer living with his wife and children at their home. He appeared to be living out of the U-Haul truck. So, these are the little things that wanted to wait afterwards, because the, the...

Well, that speaks directly to the "fail to return rental property." They have nowhere, what's inside the U-Haul truck? What's that about? That doesn't make sense.

So, so and, and I wanted to wait to the end because this stuff is just getting, if you're listening to this, this just happened. So, we're taking it on what's been reported so far. But that was the point of the conversation to talk about what you know in stride, in the situation, in the moment, right? Other things are going to come out. And the other thing I found interesting is really just like, not long before that, one day earlier, there was this, there was another workplace violence shooting where someone was shot in the head, pronounced dead at the scene. The person was arrested, I believe. But the, the point is, sometimes events, you know, one should cue you into the next. Meaning, those things should be reminders of not another workplace shooting. It should be, "Oh, man, like, I wonder if this was going to happen?" Exactly. "What could I do? What would I do in that situation? Or what can I look out for?" Right?

But what do we end up doing? We, and, and because as we know historically, dates, locations have historical significance. We see people see things on the news. They repeat that behavior. That's why you'll see one shooting and then right after that, that same week, another one, because someone's already at that point of where they're about to break, and they see that on the news. "Yeah, you know what? That's, that is a pretty good idea. I've been thinking about that too."

But that's no different than, there's a great book, trying to remember the name, called Everybody Lies. And it's actually by a data scientist who wanted to understand why during the 2016 election, where Donald Trump won, why did all the polls show Hillary Clinton, you know, in this big lead leading up to it, including the day of, but then that's not what happened? And he wanted to really crack the code, and he did everything by basically like Google searches. So, you can go do Google searches and what people search for and how you can extrapolate data. But the point, one of the things he tried to make or one of the points he made in that book, was when, you know, locally, if there's a well-known person locally in your area that commits suicide, there's, there's an immediate increase of, I forget what percentage, of suicides in that area, right? Because someone feels some connection to that person who's already dealing with all these trauma. They go, "Well, Bill couldn't handle it either. You know what? If he couldn't do it, how am I supposed to handle it?" You know, for different reasons. But the point is, it's the kind of the monkey-see, monkey-do. Humans repeat their behavior and other people's behavior when it's exposed. So, it's something else I just wanted to hit at the end.

No, and I don't want to unduly weight that, Brian. I think... No, no, no, no, right, I love that. But here's the thing, okay, there's no scientific link between the moon and lunacy and having the increase. No, no. Okay. But it's been the topic of every book, movie, Wolf Man, so, all kind of crap forever, right? So, we have to acknowledge that there's at least a likelihood that on that... And where I'm going before I even go back here now is, the only hospital in the world that's not open 24 hours a day is in Haddonfield, Illinois. Why? Because that's where the dude, you know, the Halloween guy comes in and all the lights are off, and there's nobody working in the hospital. No, it doesn't work like that. So, when you're working in a high-profile place that's open 24 hours, at a cop shop, hospital, yeah, shit's going to happen there. And so, you have to be prepared for that. And I would say those moments, hours or days right after a critical incident, you should be more vigilant. I don't need you to be no more so.

Well, that speaks directly to what you said. Well, and, well, that, that also speaks to kind of, you know, literal truths, metaphorical truths, right? Like, meaning, you know, I mean, they're not true, well, it's, can be something can be, you know, literally false, right? The data does not support the fact that there's an increase in crime or these behaviors during a full moon. But metaphorically, where does that come from? And, and is that, is there some sociological reason that that, that has been around for hundreds of years? Of course. So, yes, psychologically, will confirmation bias draw me down that drain once I pull the plug? You see, I, I mean, drawn into the situation even metaphorically, I agree.

No, and that's, I think there, there was, there was, you know, there's one other example that I, I, I forgot. But no, you're talking about what's literally true, it's metaphorically true. And, and why we jump to those and why we lump all that stuff together. And, and that's, that's a danger of confirmation bias and thinking that way, because it, it, it allows us to not see, or we... but that's the danger. That's a danger in Stacey Hayes, Brian. We had no idea. Andre James could have been a sniveling whiplash. He could have been going, "Aha! I took your house! I took your wife!" He could be personally responsible for everything. Folks, listen to what I'm saying, he could be! I'm not saying he is, I'm not saying any of that stuff entered into it, and then it is a much more logical reason behind this incident occurring. But there is no reason this person isn't thinking logically. Stacey isn't going, Stacey looked and said, "Screw this!" Okay, and then what did he say? He said, "F this guy!" and he went in and he did it. So, so don't sit there with this motivation and say, "Yeah, well, it was building since childhood." And the first thing that he did, tangible, tangible veins, lines in your brain, the creases, the axons and the dendrites, "I will believe this, this social theory." I don't believe.

No, and what you, what you described and what you ended with, what we went through here, is, you know, my statement of always, you know, human behavior is, is, is far more complex than most people realize, and at the same exact time, it's a hell of a lot simpler. But it's a lot simpler than we're willing to accept sometimes. And that's where you get the, we just went from literal truths, metaphorical truths, to confirmation bias, to all these different things too. Now, he was upset and he wanted to kill the guy. And you're like, "It can't be that simple." It's like, "Yes, it is." Sorry, like, I, I, I, it really...

Why do we have a witness impact statement? I know we're coming in for a landing, but I'll throw this at you: Why do we have a witness impact statement? Why do we have the victim's family be able to go up during the sentencing? Okay, and sorry, a lot of topics today, but why do we allow that? Because we think that there's going to be this epiphany moment, and the person's going to look at the family and go, "I killed your daughter for money. I'm so sorry. I'm penitent. I wish she was back, and I could trade my..." And Brian, it's remarkable because that never happened. It happened so rarely that there's a movie. It's that what really happens is the T.J. Lane, "My, you know, the hand I use to kill your children is what I use to masturbate to their memory." That's what really all of you, yeah.

You know, so, so I, I think that's a, that's a, that's a great point is, we as humans, or a lot of people really, we need that closure. "I need to know why, I need to understand." And, and it's, it's far simpler, and, and we, that's why I say, than we're willing to accept sometimes. "I don't want to believe..."

A great point.

...and because it's, it's a tragedy, it's horrible for the families. It's even the father of the victim of this one who was like, "Yep, I, I, I want to, I want him to live. I want to know why. What, what, what was it? What happened?" And like, that is, that's horrible, and it's heartbreaking, and it's sad. And we all want to understand that, and we're not satisfied with, "Because he was upset and wanted to kill him." Because if you're, if you have that feeling of, "I can't understand why he did it," good, that means you're probably a normal functioning human being, right? Meaning, you don't have that thought of, "I'm going to get so angry, I'm going to kill someone." Like, so, so that's the idea, and, and I know that's, that's difficult to comprehend for a lot of folks. That's why, well, that's why I always go back to it: human behavior is far more complex and a lot more simple than we're willing to accept. So, I think that that's another one that we can, can think about. So, I don't know, that's, that's, we're at about an hour here, Greg. I think we, we walked through that from, from start to finish on this anyway. Any other last, last comments on this one?

No, I'm going to, I'm going to withhold that. I'm looking forward to you and I discussing this, which will have Supreme Court ramifications, this Greyhound bus payment.

Yeah, let's do that. If we can, let's, we'll do that one. Yeah. And we'll, we'll definitely record for anyone, you can, can look that up. There's some lawsuits and things with the, with, you know, Fourth Amendment issues. Oh, yeah, there, and there's a lot on the docket this, this semester, or I figured this season in the Supreme Court, there's a lot going on. So, we'll have some good, good deep dives on a few of those in a couple months, probably towards the end of the year when we start getting some, you know, getting into that.

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