L.O.G. 178 The Street View

Welcome. We'll go ahead and get started. First, Chris, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate your time and coming on here today.

Oh my god, are you kidding me? Thanks for having me and trying to help get some truths out in the world. It's getting crazy. I appreciate it.

Yes. So, we're going to kind of jump right into it here because for our listeners, I know you had a quick intro about Chris, but he'll tell a little bit of a story. The idea is we talk about a number of different cases, sometimes related to law enforcement policy, law, and how that affects us physically or psychologically, sociologically, physiologically. How these things affect individual people and then extrapolate that and scale that out to everyone in a society. And then what you can kind of glean from that. We haven't really had anyone on from your perspective to tell a story because it's important to us. Like we always say, "Hey, what does the data tell us? What do the numbers show?" But Greg and I know that's not the full story.

What happens is you don't always get the ground truth of someone going through a situation and what they felt like and what it was for them. Because it's really important. It's important from your perspective being in law enforcement. It's important to hear from the community perspective, from the city perspective. You got to listen to that and go, "Okay." Because our thing is, our perfect example is when we're talking about physiological reactions and what happens to your brain and your body if you feel like you're under attack, guess what? You are. There's no difference. Someone can say, "Well, you're technically not because of this," but if you feel that way, then that's what it is. That's the truth of the matter for that individual. So, we like to kind of get that story out.

Yours being from, you went from one law enforcement agency, you saw a lot of things going on, going in a direction you didn't like, and you literally sort of picked up yourself, your life, your career, and moved across country to go find something better while still doing the job that you love doing. So, it's an interesting perspective because we've heard a lot about this. And most people listening, if they don't have any direct involvement, especially with law enforcement, they might hear a story about that. They might see it on the news or hear about one state hiring, but they don't often get to interact with someone who's actually had to do that.

So, I wanted to have you, one, we get a witness that we can pose or interview, not interrogate yet. But there's one of three places that Chris is coming from, Brian, as a copper with double digits. He's either coming or going to court to testify, or he's coming or going to bed because he's got to get ready for his shift, or he's coming or going to a bar to get ready for either his shift or his court testimony. So, we figured we'd get you out and get a little vitamin D. You get what I'm saying? Get a little vitamin A coursing through your system. So, that's really, we're doing a community service thing, Brian.

Right, right, right.

And I appreciate that. So does my [laughs].

There you go. So, Chris, I'll have you kind of go in and give a little bit of background about your story and kind of what I just talked about from your perspective. Then we can dive into some of the details and pull the thread from there of other stuff that we've seen. But I'd love to kind of throw it to you first to give the story of where you're at. You can talk about your involvement with this "Three Cops Talk" podcast that you have as well.

Well, thanks again for having me on the show. So real quick, my background is, I got my master's. I was a chief financial officer for a number of years, and I've always wanted to be the police. Everybody could read my bio at some point. So I decided to take up my passion and be the police. To put it in perspective, my first year's salary as a policeman was my previous year's bonus in finance, and it was just a passion. Throughout my career, I did K9. I did a lot of things I wanted to do. I loved it.

Then everything kind of started to change to where the police apparently became the bad guy, and that's where a lot of people felt. We'll get into more detail, but one of the things that kind of pushed it over the edge was this whole George Floyd thing. Because we're out there, and everybody knows about the protests and what happened and all this other stuff, and we're out there just getting the snot knocked out of us, and we're knocking the snot out of people, and they're throwing mortars at us, and we're fighting. We're all kind of standing around going, "Well, wait a minute, why is everybody mad at us when we agree what he did was wrong? Why are we fighting? What are we? We all agree because he went through the process and he got what the judge gave him." I feel if it was a civilian, it would have been the same type of scenario. So, we're all kind of standing out there, and we're like knee-deep in blood and glass and everything going, "Where is this going? Why are we doing this?" But we all still had a passion for it.

Then after that, our laws started to change. So, in Illinois, we lost qualified immunity. You can't foot chase unless you get a sergeant's approval. You have to ask five times before you tase somebody, that kind of stuff. It was just like, "Well, wait a minute, I still love the work, but I am not going to lose everything that I've worked so hard for going out there and doing the right thing." Listen, we all know that there's bad apples in barrels. We get it. I don't care what you are, and it's going to happen. But it was the broad brush. I was actually having a conversation about this with a guy on my show, and he actually brought it up. It's a racist bias, it's racial because you're a cop. It's one felt brush, a stroke of a brush, that you're bad, that you want to kill everybody, just like, and he was explaining it just like when people look at a Black guy or a Hispanic or an Asian or whatever, and they paint this broad brush, it's racial. So, we got into a deep conversation about it.

Long story short, I still love the work, my friends still love the work. So, we just kind of took our 20, got out, and went to different departments where people want to have law and order and they want to have us around. I think what was happening in other places is that it was becoming so lawless and so fruitless that one of my last cases was: we had an 82-year-old lady, she got punched in the face and had her orbital broken. I'm at the gas station, she steals the purse. I'm at the gas station, and I see him running. I can't release the dog because there are way too many people. Go after him. Foot chase is on. I get him. My partner gets on him, he swings, I move my head, my partner hits him once, rolls him over, cuffs him. It's done.

So, we're trying to explain it to the State's Attorney. The State's Attorney is going, "Yeah, well, he didn't hit you." I go, "No, because I've moved my big Polish melon. I'm not the smartest man in the world, but I'm not going to get hit in the face." And she goes, "Well, we really prefer contact, because that's actually a battery." I'm like, "So wait a minute," I said, "So you're telling me that my partner committed a battery and I'm an accessory because I didn't stop it from happening when I'm wrestling this guy who just punched an 83-year-old lady in the face and broke her face?" Yeah.

So, it was just a lot of that going on. You still have people that have a passion for the work. That's kind of like myself and a couple of my friends just upped and picked up our families, took our 20, 21, 22 years (of service), and out. And started someplace else where we could still be the police and have, again, at least a place we're going. I mean, we still have bad policemen, but they're prosecuted. But there are not protests and stuff, they're treated like a criminal that they are, if they are.

Let me throw a sociological perspective in here, and Chris, I know that some of this is going to be hard to talk about, but it's great to get it out and get it on the table. Brian, if I can depose you for just a second, what about what number are we up to on the George Floyd case right now, monetarily?

I think the estimates, it's something like north of six billion dollars. It's cost overall. It might be higher, but that's what we've heard, that in our mind. When we're talking for a second...

Yeah, because that is a catalyst, Chris. That's not the only catalyst. That's not the only thing you saw go sideways or start the decline. It was a big one. But I would say sociologically and certainly psychologically, think about looking through a straw. If you look through a straw at your entire career, it's hard to get all of those to coalesce into one clear picture. Do you hear what I'm saying? You kind of look here, and you remember that part of your career, and you look here, and then you back up and you look at this. So, if you open your aperture, you look at things better.

Now, here's a dichotomy. If we had a hunter on the show, and the hunter was saying, "Yeah, at which point I make sure my .300 Win Mag is dialed in, and I'm using a 180-grain boat tail." You're going to get some people that are going to listen to that and go, "Why would you kill an animal when you can go to the store and buy one?" So, the reason I'm saying the straw analogy and the hunter analogy is, we've got listeners right now that already said, "Oh, well, it's just a property crime. It's only a purse. And yeah, okay, the old lady, that's the price of doing business, and you shouldn't take it personally with chasing people."

How many years were you a copper in that first agency in Illinois?

Okay. So, after 21 years, Brian Marren, it's safe to say that Chris has seen, he's seen life from both sides now (referring to the song "Both Sides Now"). But the idea is that what happens is, one, you're operating within the law. Legal, moral, and ethical is the way to go. Number two, there are bad people out there. Do a ride-along. Figure out what crime is all about because there are some real bad people that don't want to go to jail out there. Three, you got a series of dedicated cops, and people call it the "thin blue line," but that's been bastardized where people think what that means is we close ranks and we'll take one for the team and lie about other cops and say, "No, he was there," or "Drop a gun." Folks, that [expletive] only happens in Hollywood! And you're saying, "Oh, yeah, yeah, well, people get exonerated from prison." Hey, we didn't put him in prison. The idea is, the jury put him in prison.

So, what's happening here, Chris, I want you to understand, is the perspective of some viewers. And you have a show, so you know exactly what I'm going to talk about. You're going to get somebody that goes, "Oh, when he mentioned race, he played the race card." That's not what you're talking about. What you're talking about, I think, is that you're talking about there are clearly defined rules, and this is one of those professions where when you step behind the velvet ropes, you get to see the fraud, rape, and the misogyny, and the horror, and the violence.

So, how did you—and this is the question, long way around the house, the question—how did you stay 21 years and finally draw the line at Floyd? There had to be precipitating events where you smelled, you saw the wind changing. You felt the change. Please kind of let us in on it so everybody knows that it wasn't an ironclad, right-now decision, that this crept up on you.

So, over the years, everybody on the streets, you see the pendulum swing. 9/11, everybody liked the police, right? And then it kind of goes back to the middle, and then it would swing that everybody didn't like the police because of this, and then it would swing back to the middle, and then everybody liked the... So, the pendulum would always swing, and you knew that. During that pendulum swing, you saw bad coppers get prosecuted that tarnished your badge. You saw bad people get prosecuted. You saw the whole "us and them" type of cat and mouse game that's been going on for years.

But what really started to happen after that were more and more policemen were just being ambushed. More and more policemen were just getting brutalized. More and more citizens were getting brutalized and people not being punished for it. So, we're out there, and we're doing what we need to do to bring the people to justice. And by the way, I'm going to say—and I know people who throw out percentages are highly percentages wrong—but I'm going to say, during this whole thing, the majority of the people wanted the police on the street, but the majority of the people didn't like the fact that people weren't being prosecuted. But that's a whole other story.

No, that's a great point because actually Greg and I were talking about that too, is how you have, and you know it from your work in law enforcement, but you got different areas of a city. Let's say you got people that, hey, they make really great money, they're in that upper-middle class to upper-class area, right? You got some middle class where it'll mix, and then you've got some folks struggling trying to make it up to that next level, right? Unfortunately, sometimes they're the victims in a lot of these situations, and they don't get the attention they deserve. They actually don't want that in their neighborhood because they're trying to make it better. They're trying to get out of that. Maybe they grew up in that type of neighborhood, they're going, "Look, I'm trying to get out. I don't want this. We want peace, we want security, we want safety here. We want our kids to be able to walk to school." All the rich folks on the other side of town get that, right? Because the criminals don't go in there because they know they're going to stick out, and someone's going to call the police, right? They can operate my area.

So, what you're talking about is that people in the middle there that are like, "No, we want this." And since they don't have as much of a voice, maybe as some activist who has a big following on social media, they can't get it out there that they're going, "No, when you back off like this, it sends a message." Now it all gets thrown around. People are saying, "Well, you got to change sentencing guidelines for non-violent crime and this." If it's drugs, we shouldn't arrest. Okay, there may be certain parts in there that are logical and make sense. But you can't take, like you just said with people doing the police, and take a broad stroke over everything and say we'll just throw it on everything. Because what people don't understand, a lot of people don't understand about the law, is that it's a case-by-case basis. You can't necessarily look at one case and then immediately compare it to the other one, go, "See, it's the same." It's like, "Well, no, many of the circumstances were different. Therefore, this requires a different level of force or a different level of incarceration or a different approach." Because it's not black and white, it's a little complicated, it's nuanced. So, that means it takes time and calories for me to try and understand it, I don't want to do that.

So, I just want to hit that point because it's such a good point is that there are a lot of people who do want that, and they don't have a voice. They don't have the ability to come out there because maybe even their neighbors are like, "Hey, we can't do that right now."

Chris, put me on the ground. The reason that you were there in a tumultuous situation right after George Floyd is because you and all your cop buddies agreed that Floyd should have been choked to death, and so you were fighting with the community. Is that an accurate portrayal?

No, not at all.

Portray that, right? So, the idea is you were there to maintain order. You were there to protect structures and protect livelihoods and protect lives. And the idea is that they only looked, and this is where I like how you're amending your definition of race, because what you're saying is they only looked at your blue color. You know what I'm saying? And that's all they saw. They didn't understand there was a man behind there. They didn't understand there's a father behind there, and a husband behind there, and all the other wives you've had because you're a cop, and all the things that you've experienced and that you've seen. And see, that's the problem is there was no level of communication at that point. It was all an escalation of violence.

And the problem is that now we look back, and we talked about so much change. Do you remember how everything was supposed to be instrumental in the change after George Floyd? Things were going to be different. We were going to look at different cops that broke the law or abused the law or bent the law, we're going to look at it differently. The fact of the matter is, we didn't do any of that, right? But you still had a lead, you still felt that you had to get up and go, and we call that "voting with your feet." So, take us through how hard that process was. Take us through those couple of days, weeks, months, whatever you're doing, because I remember what it was like leaving the Detroit metropolitan area, and it was the hardest decision in my life, but it was a decision I knew that I had to make. So, take us into your headspace and time here.

So, basically, I had another dog, and I was working K9, and I just, I loved it. I mean, I had a lot of fun, and to me, it's probably one of the best, or the best job in the police department. But I still had a passion for going out there. I was the oldest guy on my shift and on midnight. They're like, "Dude, you're like 50, and you're still working midnight? You should have been on days like 10 years ago." So, I went out there, and I love being there because the young people were aggressive, and we went out there, and we did cop stuff and whatever. Then I just started seeing that pendulum swing the other way. When you're on a call, people are actually making an effort to come confront you. They're making an effort to come where most people would be like, "Yeah, it's the police, I probably don't want to be there," or it was people coming out of the way to cause even more trouble. And it was like, "What are we doing?" It just got crazy.

So, one day, one of the things was that I just started thinking, "I'm out here doing what I love to do. I love, I don't like bullies. I love enforcing the law. I love putting bad people away. I love making people know that they're going to have a safer day because of what I do." And it sounds corny, it's not like you're going to interview, but that's why a lot of us do it. But I started going out there, and I'm like, "I don't have to worry about the people that I'm possibly going to fight, or I got to go to a call. I got to worry about the people that are supposed to be on my side." That was really, and that was really the thing. Because at least on the street, as people know, you could have a conversation with people, and you talk to them, you take that extra minute, and you may strike a rapport. You may agree just to say, "Hey, you're the police, and I'm going to kill you," and "You're a bad guy, I'm going to put you in jail." But at that moment, you each go your separate way. But it came to be more and more that you were second-guessing yourself because you weren't worried about getting hurt from the bad guy. You weren't worried about going into that dark room. You were worried about, "If I go into that dark room and I take care of business, what's going to happen to me? Am I going to end up in jail?"

And that was really the big thing. Then, conversations with my wife, and I had my 20 years in and stuff like that. It was really the point that came that you had to start worrying about what's going to happen to me, even if I do everything right. Even if I do everything right, it's a good shoot or whatever, and what am I going to have to go through to prove that I was right?

Yeah, what you brought up and what you're talking about now is something I've seen in other areas, and what it is, is I think going the wrong direction. What I mean by that is we, instead of saying, "Okay, we need to review our policies, and then we need to do additional training on these policies, or we need to get some other experts in here. Let's talk about the best way forward, and let's increase the capability of the officer on the ground." We take the exact opposite approach, and what do they do? They take away responsibility. "You know what, Chris, you're 20 years, you no longer have the ability to make this call in the situation. That's going to go up to higher (authority)." And we think that's oversight or that's going to help in the situation because sometimes it can. But what you're really doing is, I'm taking away responsibility from you. I'm saying you're not allowed to do that anymore. That doesn't solve the problem. It actually can make it worse.

Because what happens over time is now we're building automatons. We're not building people that can think on their own. We're building people that go, "Okay, situation C happened. You have choice one, two, three. All right, you chose three. Okay, here's the three things you can (do)." It's just not how it is. You have to instill in them the competence and confidence to go make the right decision at the right time for the right reason. But that's not what we're doing. I literally saw that in the Marine Corps when I was first in and had some pay issues and had to go to the admin building. There was a separate line if you were E-5 or above. If you were a Sergeant or above, you got your own separate line, you didn't have to wait with everyone else. You got faster service. And then when I was leaving, that line was, they just changed that sign, it was E-5 and below. So, now E-5 no longer meant that you were behind the velvet ropes, you were still the general population. And I'm like, you're taking away that responsibility. And so I see it in other areas. I'm sorry, Greg, I know you had something.

No, no, no, I'm spot on. Chris, I got to tell you this from a copper to a copper. The day that I knew I had to go, so I had a higher felony arrest record than anybody else in any of the counties that worked anywhere near the city where I was working. I was getting awards, and it's not why I was a cop. I was a cop the same way that you said, for the underdog. I didn't like bullies, okay? But I was getting awards because I was out there doing the stuff that nobody else was doing. I was out there risking my [expletive] for our community, for our people that lived there. So, every night I'd get an award, and everybody would clap, and then they'd say, "See me after roll call," and my boss would say, "Son of God, I'll put you in prison. You're going to be on a welfare line. You're going to be back, back." And I'm like, "What am I doing? I'm doing my job."

"Yeah, but you're doing your job, you're out there, you make work for me." And I didn't sign up. So, you got all the oxygen thieves that just through longevity stuck around forever, and they didn't want to do nothing. And I was on midnight. I was the dinosaur on mid. I know what that's like, right? And I sat there and I thought, okay, so I'm working a mid-car. I'm working plain clothes. I just got a national heroism award for this stuff, and I'm looking in the rearview mirror, expecting any time that our supervisory staff is going to come in and go, "Ah, I can hire two guys for what you're making, and they'll go to sleep at night every night behind the FOP (Fraternal Order of Police)." Right? And it just got to that point. But I didn't have 20 years in, so I had to make that decision, like, "Hey, listen, I'm going to pitch the tent, and I'm going to go."

First of all, thank God for your service. Thanks for your 20 years. But you know what it's like when you feel that you're always worried that inside and down, the bad guys are going to be the bad guys. Our job is to chase them, their job is to run. And people just don't get how simple the math is with crime and criminality. They think everything is like some big show like CSI Miami or something like that, right? 90% of what you did was people pissed off at other people, fighting people, having to do with reports, and then people victimizing people, robbing and beating and killing and raping. And they didn't give a [expletive] about anybody.

But did you, I believe in what Brian says, and I believe what you said, Chris, that the community stood behind you and what you were doing. And there was a very small, a small vocal minority that was constantly getting up in the [expletive] and making the news and making the headlines that cops are bad. I mean, I think I came from the most corrupt agency in Michigan. We had people arrested on a roll call. We had the Feds come in and take reports and file cabinets and police vehicles as evidence. So, I know what that feels like, right? I was never dirty. We always said, I'll never work with or hang around with anybody that's involved in any of that stuff.

So, how do you get that across? Now, what was different when you walked across the street and interviewed for another agency? Because what people don't get that are on this podcast that are listening right now is cops are leaving by the droves. Some cops are forsaking all of their benefits and everything else and saying, "I just can't do it anymore." And then people equate police with like a security force. You're a highly trained operator that knows your AO (Area of Operations), and you go in every day, and you know what's anomalous. You know which cars belong, you know who doesn't belong. So, you're constantly on the prowl. So, take me into that moment when you knew that leaving was the right thing and that the other agency was the right place to go. How did that feel?

So, it felt good and it felt weird because the 21 years is what, it's the devil you know. Then you're going into the new agency, and it's the unknown. But the line for me was, I knew that where I was in Illinois, their motivation was to go after policemen, and people were, and that's why they're leaving by the droves. I mean, they still want to do the work, but they don't want to go to prison, which I get.

When I came to Florida, you're going to an agency that wants to take time, money, and effort to train you so you do the best you can, so they don't have to worry about it, right? So, you have a sheriff or a chief or whatever that goes, "Yeah, maybe he probably shouldn't have shot at the police." I mean, I don't know, we talked and this is the training that we go through, and this is what we did, or this is how it happened. And you have, I guess, the forethought to realize that with everything going on in the world, it's more training, more scenario-based training, and roll call trainings and specialty trainings. And having so-and-so go to, I don't know, a firearms training or a de-escalation training and come back and talk about it at a roll call. So, you're going from an anti-training environment to pro-training to give you the tools to be successful. And that's what I knew was right.

Yeah, and that's right. I want to throw this out there. You would go into your patrol sergeant and you'd say, "Hey, this is the caper I've got going on," and he's asking like, "Hey, what evidence do you got? Is anybody injured? What's going?" And then later the shift lieutenant would be reading the report and going, "Nah, mens rea, you got to establish the elements here. Get back on that report and tell me what happened here." Then somebody would be going, "Hey, send another car out to see if anything's on the ground and take a photo or get a witness." Then you go to the DA or the ADA, the prosecuting attorney's office, Greg, and they would look over your affidavit for arrest or your warrant, and they'd go, "Hey, I got to tell you, this looks like a weak disorderly caper. Was there anything else going on?" You go, "Yeah, the alcohol." And everybody was going to try to build the biggest, best case in chief possible to ensure successful prosecution or that they would take a plea and not tie up the system. It seems like that's not what the DA or their office is used for anymore.

No, no. First, I've heard. Now what they do is, why am I leaving? They actually assigned one person to go—I don't know if that's an algorithm or whatever—to go through all, because the police reports all go central now, sure. To go and do an algorithm, or they go into FOIA (Freedom of Information Act requests), however they do it. Anything that shows resisting police, because they know there was obviously a fight, we're going to pull all those reports not to find the bad guys. But they want to get ahead. They want to get ahead of all the news media coming to their front door because somebody got kicked. Somebody got kicked during a fight over a knife or something like that. They want to get ahead of the game. So, it's not even building a case anymore. It's more building a case against the police instead of building a case against the bad guy. It's just, you just see a lot. There's no way that that's going to work. There's no way people are going to come and go, "You know what, I really want to do this work." It's going to be horrible.

Yeah. So, one of the ways I try to kind of generalize this to explain to people about is putting it in a different domain, and I know Greg's been there for some of these conversations. But I remember talking to a doctor, and he was talking about their malpractice insurance rates are super high, and there are all these issues in the medical field. And this is what happens. They sat there, him and another doctor, talking about these horror stories of doctors and the things that they did, and how hard it is to actually lose your medical license. I think it's a little easier now, but meaning to go after these people. You're just going through the worst stuff you've ever heard, and these are doctors, these are people coming in for care, right? And I just asked, I was like, "Well, did you report these people? Did you go after them? Did you turn them in? Do you have some weight?" And they're like, "Well, no, we just kind of have to stay away." "You just got, not enough people." I was like, "Okay, now think about that when you're looking at law enforcement or you're thinking about something." I was like, "Do you see how this works, how if, why is it okay for you to walk past it, but you want them held to a different standard?" That's ridiculous.

You can think of, go to anyone right now, what do people constantly [expletive] about? "Oh man, I'm always dragging other people on the team at the office," or "So-and-so never does [expletive]," or, "They're only at work this amount of time." It's like, "Okay, so do you think that's just unique to your office, or is that unique to everywhere in the freaking world?" Right? You have certain people. The idea is because we always tell people like, "Hey, what you walk past is what you're willing to accept." Well, they're okay saying that about police officers. They don't like it when you say it about their own career. You're like, "You walked right past that person. You allowed that to happen. That means you're now part of the problem." And it's hard for people to see it.

You're a visible sign of authority. People have always talked about, "We're bashing, we're against the man," that's "the man and authority and this." I get that, especially when you're young, that's normal, right? Then you get older, you kind of realize, "That's kind of stupid." We need to have some mortar here.

Right, right, right.

So, that's been constant. But what's changed now, even to the point where was it earlier this year, Greg, the director of the FBI even said, he said, "Law enforcement officers are being murdered at a higher rate than ever seen before." Most people just heard that, and whatever. But when the director of the FBI uses the word "murder," he knows what that word means. It doesn't mean killed in the line of duty. It means direct, this is a homicide we're talking about, this is something with intent.

So, now you get to see the data and the numbers change, and that sort of doesn't catch up with your story and what can happen with police officers leaving agencies happens sort of faster than those numbers come in, right?

Right.

Because people react, and they're like, "Well, [expletive] this, I'm done, I'm out of here." And we're all sitting around, seeing the same problems, so we all go somewhere. Then the problem, it takes what, a year, two years for the rest of those numbers to catch up, and people go, "Oh wow, we really went wrong back here." And you're like, "Yeah, we told you this would happen a long time ago. I knew where this was going to go."

Here's the thing about being a witness, first-hand witness, to kinetic combat, to operating in a combat zone. You get to see law and lawlessness, and at a level that other people would never understand unless they walked in your shoes and saw what you saw. It's even hard to talk about those things. What they also don't understand is being on the streets, after again, I say double digits all the time, if you're not collecting longevity, you're still a rookie. Right? But think about how many blow-tops. Think about how many homicides. Think about how many fatal wrecks. Think about unattended deaths. All the other stuff that you have to endure. And what really pisses me off is when I see the people go, "Well, you don't know what I face." I [expletive] know what you've faced, and a lot of coppers out there know what you've faced. Right?

The idea was that they don't understand sometimes how hard it is, first of all, to pass all the background checks and become a cop and become a good cop, and then get out on the street and actually gain the rapport of the community and gain the trust of a judge. Do you know what it's like to testify in front of a judge? If you don't, then the idea of there's a standard. Judges know you, and they know that there are cops that do nothing but [expletive] capers all the time, and they don't give them any slack. There's a whole life that goes on out there after dark, and that's why we encourage people to do ride-alongs all the time and go out there because they don't see it.

And then all of a sudden, think about it, you have to talk to your wife, talk to your kids, talk to your significant other, no kids, maybe just your dog, whoever the [expletive] you got. And you're now saying, "Okay, I'm going to give away," now again, I want to point out that thank God Chris had 20 years in, right? So, he's vested in some manner. But there are coppers now that have six or nine or eleven years in that aren't, and they've got to go. You know what the fear, the anxiety of saying, "This is the only thing in life that I'm good at. I was a good cop, I was proud of being a cop. I never made a DUI (Driving Under the Influence) arrest. That wasn't what I did. I only did felony action. I like getting in there and mixing it up with the bad guys because they didn't want to go." And then all of a sudden somebody said, "Nah, not so much anymore."

And that did. And guess what the answer, because people think, "Well, if we just wouldn't, we weren't there, it wouldn't happen." Yeah, you're right. So, let's do this, let's pull the cops out of those neighborhoods. And what are those neighborhoods now? Let's defund the cops and in those neighborhoods now.

And in the final part of my rant is that Brian and I see a lot of these monies, more money I think now for training that's ever been available, ever. And you know what, some PhD that's never been on the road, that the way they conducted stuff is saying, "Hey, I've always wanted to get my book published." They come in and they go, "This is the training that this community needs in de-escalation." We don't even have a working definition for de-escalation, but they're willing to have these courses all over. And the great thing, I sent one to Brian yesterday, maybe, that it was a four-hour instructor's course on de-escalation. I can't learn to wipe my [expletive] in four hours, much less be an instructor.

And here's the funny part. So now it's a week class, it's a week-long class. You know how we learned, and we were probably more successful, watching the guy who's been on the job 15 years talk a person off the bridge.

Exactly.

So, then you have this PhD comes in and teaches a class. I'm like, "Bro, he's like, 'Well, you want to talk about this and you want to do that.'" I'm like, "Bro, what are you talking about?" Sometimes you go, "Hey, listen man, you find a report and on any level you find a report about, you like the Cowboys, you like the..." We talked a guy out of stabbing himself. I told him that he didn't want to tell his parents that he was gay. I told him my partner was gay. I mean, my partner's not gay, but it's just that's what you do. You called it the "Father Flanagan." You had to be an actor, you had to be a negotiator, you had to be the mom or the dad or the kid at that moment, and you had to appeal to people because that's a big part of it too. It wasn't all just car chases and foot chases and shooting back and forth.

And you use the word, I'll give you a word that you use that was so rare, it was remarkable back in the day when I was on the road, and I truly am a dinosaur. You used the word "ambush." Okay, I remember two incidents of ambush that were so important that were taught at the Macomb Police Academy. I was going to drop another F-bomb (meaning another academy), Oakland and Wayne Police Academy, to teach cops how not to die because cops didn't get ambushed like that back then. It wasn't like that. And that's now part of the lexicon. If you had the old soldiers that wrote "Tactical Edge," now there'd have to be extra chapters in that son of a gun. "Hey, look behind you. Hey, the camera might be your Axon that gets you convicted for being empathetic on a scene and not doing..." You remember a couple years ago, Brian, the caper that we covered where the person didn't shoot and they fired the person because they didn't shoot? That would never happen nowadays. The whole administration would be tossed out.

So, people, I believe this, Chris, I believe that a community and people get the police work they deserve, but they've got to just hurry up and decide what it is that they want. And so you're feeling now that the yoke has been lifted off you, that you're among professionals that want to do it right. The training is going on. So, let me ask you, the caveat lens backwards, and Marren's born and raised in Chicago, and you can tell. All you got to do is spend five minutes with him, you can see that [expletive] all over him. But if you could shine a big Streamlight or a Cal Light back on the AO (Area of Operations) that you used to work, back on the streets, back on your people, do you see it changing anytime soon? And what would it take to change? What do you think? What do you feel about that?

I think the way it's going to change is two things. Number one, I think what's going to happen is people are going to have to get educated of who they need to take the fight to, because unfortunately, right now, the people on the street think that it's the cop's fault, and it's our fault in their eyes, because we're out there doing the work. "Well, after this, after that, why are these people on the street? There's nothing I can do about that." That's one of the last discussions I got into with a guy. We were talking about, he kind of started ranting about, "You're all racist and all this other stuff and blah blah blah, whatever." And I had my dog with me, it was a domestic. And as he gets closer, I'm like, "Hey, give me a minute, let me get this cleared. I'll be right with you."

So anyway, long story short, he came over, and I said, "Okay, listen, you want to talk? We'll talk like men." And what he ended up learning was, when they send out a radio call, we don't ask what color you are.

Yeah.

We go, yeah, exactly. So he goes, "Well, what do I go?" And I said, "That radio call comes out, we all come. We come, we do what we can do. And I'm not saying all 99 of us—99.7% of us—come out and do what we have to do within the parameters and the letter of the law." Anything after that, that's up to the state. I mean, I could write the best report, the state determination does not matter.

Many times that's political, right, Chris? Many times their decisions are political to get reelected or to win some kind of favor rather than in the best interest of the community. I want to make sure people know that.

Exactly right. Exactly. And then so when they get frustrated, how are they going to get frustrated? They're going to get frustrated that the person that's sitting in the office down the block when I roll up lights and sirens at 2:30 at 02-dark-30 (2:30 AM), and you got fireworks and firecrackers and people fighting, and then he was out here last week. But I'm like, "Oh, okay." So, I think it's just a whole learning process of what really is the truth and what really happens. And I really think ride-alongs are one of the best things. I really do. Because then you're out there and they see this thing, and then or you had these conversations, "Well, how come you're always in this neighborhood?" "Well, this is where the crimes occur. So, we're responding. We're responding to the radio calls." Again, I don't ask where. I don't ask who. I go to the radio call. And I think as people learn, they have to take responsibility for their own neighborhoods. So, I think if that continues, it'll swing the other way. That's the big thing.

It's almost like sometimes you see these issues where I'm like, the person's upset at the police. You're like, that's the same person yelling at the gate agent because their plane is delayed. It's like, "Dude, the gate agent had nothing to do..."

And we know it's part of our job, right?

Right. And so, but that, and that's the customer service part. But you're literally going like, "Dude, you're trying to kill the messenger here." You didn't show up because you chose to show up to that scene. Someone called, and you're the person that has to go. And I think that kind of goes into, from my outside perspective, it seems like sometimes—and it's not like a critique, it's just something that I've noticed—that a lot of times some law enforcement agencies aren't good at communicating some of this stuff to the public, meaning what their real job is.

And the other problem is, the problem is that you guys, you [expletive] go every time you're called, right? That's the problem because then what happens, maybe someone dies needlessly or something happens and it becomes catastrophic. And then everyone goes, "Oh [expletive], we got to figure out a better way to do this," or, "We got to get some training on this." We had no idea, we're outside. But that's the thing, it's like, "Well, you called me, and I showed up, and I did the best thing that I could. And now we realized something happened that we did something we should no longer do, but I didn't know that at the time." Right?

And it's almost like, because people call 911, and you show up. You consistently had to do jobs that you were not trained to do. I've seen so many things where (officers) show up like, nowhere does the police officer get trained to handle this situation. Nowhere. That does not happen. Holy crap, how did not everyone die in this situation? I'm like, how did? Because they're doing things, and I think that's the problem is then people go, "Well, you did..." It's like, "Well, [expletive] you didn't show up. [expletive]."

Right, well exactly. If you would have, you wouldn't have called in the cops. You would have handled it on your own, and it would have been probably efficient.

And I would add to one thing, your observation, Brian, and I'm spot on. And Chris, I love what you said about ride-alongs. Do you know what Hollywood doesn't make movies about Certified Public Accountants? No weekly TV show. Do you get what I'm trying to say about that real estate agent that also does taxes on the side? People want to know what the cops are doing. Hell, cops are still on the air. All of these things are there. The key, because people are fascinated with who would stand up and do that. And that's why there's such a small percent of coppers based on the whole society. Such a small amount of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines because it takes a special person to say, "I shall defend the Constitution. I shall defend your rights. I shall ensure that you get due process."

And then somebody comes up and goes, "Yeah, there's a lot of bad cops." Well, no, there's not a lot of bad cops, but there are bad cops. Sure. And there are bad librarians, and there are bad TV anchors, and there are bad hockey players. But see, we can't look at it that way. We have a skewed vision, back to looking through the straw. We want to pick and choose the battles that we fight, and the idea is if we pick and choose too hard, we're not going to have that elite team anymore. We're going to have whoever they can bring in to fill the spot. And guess what? When the pay goes down and the training goes down, what do you think happens? You get a lot more of those bad cops. You're going to get...

They just caught a guy, I don't know if you saw that in the news this morning, they caught one of the top ten criminals on the East Coast somewhere working as an armed security guard at a location. You know what I'm saying? I was sending that around. How can that happen? That happens because we're so busy trying to find somebody to fight. We're so busy with that chip on our shoulder. We're not looking that it's destroying the fabric of our communities.

No, 100%. What's gone away is just sitting down and having a conversation with the people in your sector. Like, I knew everybody in my sector. I knew who was going to run. And the people that I knew I was going to fight in two days, I would stop and check and see how they're doing. It was business, it's not personal, it's business. But guess what? When their mama needed food or, "Hey, I think my mom is hanging around with somebody bad," they're bad themselves. "Hey man, can you help me out?" "Sure, I'll tell you what, I'll help you out, but listen, next time you hear some heroin going down, I want to be the first you call me." Like, there's no more of that because you don't know, "Well, I might get afraid, I might get in trouble for saying something," or "I might get to..." There's just no, there's no communication.

And then the old saying, "It takes a village," and it does. Good and bad, it takes that village. And I just don't think there are enough people educated or asking the right questions or enough policemen that want to go out and do that kind of educating because they don't know where they draw the line, and they're not given the freedom to do that.

No, you're right. And a thorn in my side, the Civilian Review Board. Not against it, shut up for a minute and just learn. Civilian Review Board, you're saying, "Okay, you need that." Yet the standard for a jury is a jury of your peers, right? So, the idea is that if you've never been trained, if you've never seen it, if you've never done a ride-along, but your opinion-based testimony is that I probably should have done a different thing, that's horse [expletive]. Artifacts and evidence support reasonable conclusions, right? You put a lot of people in jail. How many times? Well, that's not a fair question, so I'll withdraw my thing.

Is that I know the capers I lost, and the capers I lost were whenever you went to a jury trial and the jury was kind of hemming and hawing because, it was a crime, but they didn't see it that way. I'll give you a perfect example. Do you know that in Colorado, for example, where I built a caper, if you think about kidnapping, kidnapping is moving a person from one location to another against their will. The person did not want to go. So, there was a caper, and it was a long protracted thing, but the suspect grabbed the person out of their enclosed vehicle, a truck, pulled them out, and then assaulted them on the ground. Well, that's kidnapping, right down the line, okay, for the Colorado Revised Statutes. Now, the jury didn't see it that way because what does the jury know about kidnapping? Just like everybody that brings you a bag of stuff and goes, "Hey, here, do DNA evidence on this."

So, the idea is that if the public educates themselves, but there's also a DA's office and a mayor and the town council that gets together to educate the police. One of the things that we did when we were in Iraq is started educating people about the night letters and about the IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices) and about what body bombers look like. Why? Because they didn't know either. And the people on the street in Iraq weren't the ones that were against you, it was the bad guys. And then we protracted that to go out into the farming villages of Afghanistan. The same thing, they thought we were Soviets. They had no idea where Kabul was. They had no idea what the capital of their own country was. And a more educated person uses less violence, and they'll talk it out. And that is 100% a huge part of the answer, Chris.

Brian, I want to make sure that we talk about briefly Chris's podcast because the "Three Cops Talk," sometimes when I listen, sounds almost like a dart game over a couple of beers and a brawl. Let's hear what's your guys', and I don't want to take your time, Brian, but what's your big end-state wish? Because it's a great podcast, I love tuning in. What do you want out of that podcast? What's the real meat on the bone, Chris?

The real meat on the bone is that people get educated. So, we educate them through humor or stories, or we bring people on. Like we bring people on that, the guy did 10 years for murder, and how people could change. And learning for us how to help people make change or maintain that they keep their change. Ultimately, it's just getting people educated and trying to build a relationship back between civilians and police, because it's so far skewed that we're tired of fighting people that we don't need to fight, and we're tired of getting killed, and we're tired of killing people that pull out guns and knives and stuff on us, that it doesn't even have to be just because we're the police. That's the meat on the bone.

Now, I'll tell you, Brian, that's a point you and I had made. If you got the gun, drop the gun. If you're in a stolen car, pull over. It's a property crime, walk away. Even if it's a stolen gun and it's been used in a number of homicides. Listen, that's what forensics is for. Don't run it out, don't battle it out, because these are people that are trained to ram you, release the dog on you, tackle you, and put you in metal wrist restraints. I don't know where that got lost. You know what I'm saying? Where did that get lost in the message? I remember civics class. I knew what was going to happen if you did the wrong thing in front of a copper. Right?

Well, and also, now there's just a lot of things, "Well, back in the day when you used to build rapport with these guys where you'd pull over a car and stuff, there's some dope in there, there's like, I don't know, a gram." You're like, "Here, listen to me, eat it, go home, whatever. It's a gram. I'm not taking the jail over the gram. I'm not going to do this. Just listen, just let's get you home safely, and we're going to call it a night." Then the next time, you're at the 7-Eleven by yourself or whatever, and some guy wants to jump you, turn around, and guess who's behind you? The same gangbanger you left. So, I think a lot of that has gone away.

And when people hear "old policing," it's like, I'm not talking about blackjacks and sap gloves or whatever. It's about going out there and building the rapport with your community and stuff like that. I think that's really missed, and I think that's really this, because there's a lot of misinformation. You can talk to people like, I know people back in the '70s in Chicago would sit down with the police, the community, and the gangbanger, like the heads of the gangs. And they would sit there and go, "All right, look, you're not going to do anything past this street. You're going to stay away from this school." And they worked it out, you know what I mean? Like, among warring factions, you to create some sense of security for that individual neighborhood. And you're going like, "Well, wait, they say..." He's like, "Look, you're not, you're never going to get rid of crime. There's always going to be something because it has a socio-economic element. It's beyond law enforcement. It has nothing to do with law enforcement. It's after the fact, basically." If we're not doing these other things we need to do for the economy and doing this for people, then they're going to turn to crime. Now you can make that percentage of people do that smaller, but you can't get rid of it. Right?

So, it's how do we target this stuff? And I just kind of think it's important. One other thing I did want to talk about was, a lot of people say, "Well, we got to find better people, and we got to recruit the best people, and we got..." And it's like, "Look, you got who you got." And plus, you got, listen to your story right now. This is only the second time I've talked to you, and I've listened to some of your podcasts, but you literally just started off saying, "Well, I was in finance, and I always wanted to be a cop. I always wanted to do this, so I went and did it. My first paycheck was less than, my first year salary was less than a bonus than I used to have." Okay. Right.

Well, that's a good start for the type of person. And then you did 21 years at that agency and said, "I can't stand it here anymore." You didn't go get another job, Chris. You still want to do what I want to do. Okay. Right. So, I think we've got the right people. Someone who says, "Hey, I want to," especially now today, right now in 2022, with everything here, someone stands up and says, "Yeah, I want to go be a police officer in my community." Okay, you already have the right people. They're already not going to go find better people. So, if you want to say, "Hey, we're going to make it more competitive and increase the initial salary or something," okay, I get that. Because you get what you pay for in this line of work, anything security or law enforcement related. You get what you pay for. So, if you want to make it more competitive, by all means.

You can go back to, that's what all of those researchers did in the '70s and '80s when they found these different police departments with different corruption. They literally just put the best, greatest minds studying it. They literally came back and said, "Yeah, you got to pay these guys more money, and then you won't have a corruption problem anymore." And they're like, "Oh, okay." So, they started raising salaries, and suddenly that started going away. Yeah, because they have no incentive. Now they're still doing it. They're doing the job they want to do. This guy over here can't put food on his table.

And it's just one thing, and I kind of want to get your opinion on that and how that works where you hear people like, "Oh, we got to go hire better people." I mean, of course, everybody wants the best of the best. But I think if you have people that want to be there, and you're always going to have that guy. I mean, you know that you're always going to have that guy that, "I took this job because my dad was a cop, and I get to work for 25 years and I get a retirement." Yeah, of course, don't even worry about those guys. Go put them on a stop sign. Go, I'll tell you what, anybody that jaywalks, you write him a ticket. That's what you do. But you take the people that you have and you hone them and you train them based on what their skills are along with honesty.

And a perfect example, I wanted to work undercover so bad, but I knew I couldn't get tattoos on my face, the way I stand. I mean, I'm a cop. I just, so I know my limitations, and you have to have a basic, "Yeah, I appreciate your ambition, but no, they're not really going to work. Dogs, jump squad, sniper, you got that. It's all you." Like, "The tattoos on your knuckles and face is just not going to happen." And taking those skills of what they're good at, we got a guy, we had a guy on our team, not a big ticket writer, but he could sell ice to an Eskimo. Guess what his job was? Whenever there was a critical incident that he thought that he could use his silver tongue, he was there. And you kind of, and they took that talent, and they let him go to classes, and then he started teaching other people. And some people weren't as good, but they got the job done or they held on long enough for him to show up. So, I agree. I think for the majority of the people, we have the right people. I think it's training and honing in on and getting, what do they want to do and how can we get them there?

Yeah, and that's a big push too. The military's been doing the same thing coming out of 20 years at war, that they're finally realizing, "We have to figure out how to take care of our people because we're breaking them. We're breaking everyone." And same thing, like, law enforcement suicide rate is through the roof. You're more likely to die from suicide being a police officer than you are being shot on duty. That's a [expletive] problem. And we're just now realizing, "This is, you have to look at this. I'm hiring you, Chris, for the next 25 years, and I want you to be at the top of the game because you're interacting with everyone in our city." That should be the MO (modus operandi). If you just took a step back and think, "Who do I want to police this society?" If you had some ability to create a civilization, think about who you want to police. Man, you want your best and brightest. You want to take care of those people because that's where the rubber meets the road, and that tells you a lot about where we are as a people and as a society as a whole is what's happening on the ground. So, you have to set those people up for success the best way possible.

And I look at it as a two-way street. If I invest in you, Chris, and I give you the best training, the best mental health, the best medical care, everything that you have, right? Guess what else I get to do? I get to hold you to a higher standard, right? Because I'm giving you the absolute best that's out there. And if you're not giving that back or you're not meeting it, "See ya." And that's the point is, you get rid of the people who aren't delivering, and you help the people that really need it the most. And it gets lost in a lot of ways.

Right. I also think a lot of things that get lost in the same thing is, "Well, all this technology and all this and all that." I just had this conversation with my dad the other day. My dad was in Vietnam. We were talking about the show that we did on mental health, and I found out some things about my dad and my uncle that happened in Vietnam and stuff like that. They never had, they don't have PTSD and whatever, they were very, very fortunate. But a lot of their friends did. And we were talking about this, and I said, "Well, what was the difference?" He goes, "The difference is, World War I, World War II, Korea, and when he was in Vietnam, you just didn't get on a plane and come home. You were with your friends, your buddies on a ship, on the base for 30, 60, 90 days. And all they did on those 30, 60, 90 days is you hung out with your buddies, and all you did was talk about it. You got, it was 90 days of straight therapy."

And I think a lot of the stuff that when we start looking at having the best and looking the best, we have to look at all aspects. It's just not all current technology. It's like, you have to talk to a lot of people to get the best of the best, to make sure that you have the best of the best. You train in that way. And maybe it's taking a sabbatical. Teachers, PhDs take sabbaticals, stuff like that. But I just think to get the best of the best, the training is awesome, and I think it's the trainers. The trainers that are staying that have to stay on point. And sometimes it's good just to go back old school too.

You're right. And again, you gave us the definition of old school. Remember when I grew up as a copper, I had a sap pocket on both my left and my right leg. I had a pair of sap gloves. I had the tail light flashlight. You had the chemical aerosol spray. Absolutely everything was a war zone, and you were fighting every single night. You're getting your [expletive] ripped off. But it's not that world anymore, and it doesn't have to be that world. We learned, meaning cops learned, and it trained. The training changed, and it influenced the behavior on the street. That's why our tagline is, "Training changes behavior." I've seen it happen.

But you're exactly right too, that it's pendulous, so it changes over generations. And you know what? Sometimes when a person leaves, they take with them that corner, that street corner that they worked, those ethical things that they worked. And you know, then all of a sudden you've got to build it up again. And what's not happening, it's not happening, the old sage graybeard that's kneeling down with the young kid as the FTO (Field Training Officer) anymore, and going, "This is how you run things here, and these are the people, and this guy over here is the pastor, and that guy that does the car washes, he's also the best source of information." I went back to the road, and I was like, "That's not happening anymore." I could see it coming. I could see that that art of police work was going away. And then I heard this "warrior culture," and I saw the vest on the outside of the uniforms, and I saw people working the road with beards and tats, and I was like, "Wait, what?" So, sometimes, Chris, we asked for it, and we got it, right?

Right. Absolutely.

And I think that the communities asked for it, and they got it too. We started promoting the "huggy, kissy, feely," and what happened is sometimes that water balloon slipped through our hands. So, I only got one more question, Brian, that I really want to hit on. Chris, do you think? I want to preface it by saying, I truly tell my wife all the time, our CEO, former copper, a lot of years on the road, toughest human I ever met, and she's going, "It's never going to go back." And I go, "It's going to go back. Things are going to go back to equal. Everything is going to be better. Communities are going to get stronger." How do you feel about that? I believe it, she doesn't. What do you think?

It will. I just think because I think people are realizing now that the, I don't know if you call it the media hype or the neighborhood hype or whatever, I think everything is kind of calming down now. And people are really starting to see beyond the smoke and mirrors. I think people are really starting to see that the police, trained police, are needed. Yes. And I think they're starting to look at what more we really need and what more that we really do. And I think over time it's going to come to the, and hopefully you'll have that pendulum, of course, but I think at some point it's going to come back to zero. I really do.

I agree with that and kind of look at it in a number of ways, right? So, we have sort of this culture and society where information is instantaneous and it spreads quickly, and it shifts opinion. Well, for all the bad things that that causes, there's also good things because people learn. They go, "Wait a minute, this is kind of like..." Meaning now, when a city makes a decision or an area or a State's Attorney, whatever, and they go, "Well, we're going to go with this, and we think it's going to be this way." Well, we get the results faster now. It's not you don't have to wait five, ten years, and then everyone talks about that horrible decision someone made in 1978 which caused us... No, you hear about it in 12 months or 18 months. You get that instantaneous like, "Hey, this is going wrong. We can right the ship in stride." We don't have to wait for something. So, there's a positive, and I always say that too.

But there are clearly, like, attacks are up on police. There's this feeling of anti-police sentiment. Well, guess what else there is, Chris? I bet you have more support now in some ways than you had earlier on in your career with people walking up to you going, "Hey, I appreciate what you do," or, "Hey, thank you," or, "Let me buy that for you. Let me do that." So, there's always that balance. I try to kind of remind people. It's like, "Okay, you've seen all this bad. Well, what other good things that weren't there a long time ago?" And people are like, "You're right, people are stepping up more. People are having these discussions," right? And it's sort of changing. So, I'm glad. I'm happy to hear that you sort of see it that similar way, that it goes back. It's a little bit cyclical. We get better for it in the long run.

Police training, I mean, just think about your training now today in 2022 compared to what it was like 10 years ago. Compare that to what it was like 10 years before that when you're first getting started. Compare that to 10 years prior to that. Things have evolved quickly. And because of technology and because of what happens in spread of information, it evolves even faster now. And it's either got to evolve to something good, or we all die. It's either keep getting better or just catastrophic and everything. But I'm of the belief, I think it'll get better. But yeah, I agree. That's kind of what I, the way I look at it.

I don't know, Greg, you have any...?

Yeah, I would add one thing. Well, first of all, two things. One, a fan of the show. Brian's going to put in (the show notes) how to get a hold of the "Three Cops Talk." Thank you. Everybody, please give it a listen. Tell Chris what you think.

And Brian, I think that the most common misconception, you and I have been working suicide pretty hard this last three weeks or so. So, it's really hard to not think about suicide all day long and then be depressed. Don't think anybody that's listening to this podcast, don't think that you have to let things get to rock bottom before you fight your way out. That's the biggest lie about alcoholism or drug abuse or criminality or anything else. Look, if you can identify that you're in the [expletive], you can step out of the water, kick the muck off your shoes, and start over. 100%.

So, the same thing, I really believe the same thing with communities. Don't wait until it gets to the point that you can't do anything. You know, you're not doing anybody any favors. Step in early. Have your voice be heard, but that doesn't mean you have the legal right to resist the copper in front of you. What I'm talking about is go talk to his boss, go talk to your town manager. Tell them, "Hey, I believe this," or, "How are things?" Because sometimes you're going to learn a lot in the process. Don't let it get rock bottom. Nobody wins in an untenable game. Everybody loses. Comply and complain, absolutely. That's the way it gets better. 100%. It will get better because I tell you what, if that copper gets enough of those complaints, they're gone anyway. I don't care how effective they think they are. They're going to be out of that neighborhood in no time.

Well, I tell you, Brian, it was a pleasure to have Chris on. We were afraid because sometimes you get a person on that's got a rival talk show, and all they want to do is talk theirs up and not about the left and right. And we were worried about that, but I got to tell you, one day you got to have us on your show.

Absolutely. That'd be great. I would love for you guys to come on because I really think that the more discussions that have and the more we get this word out, I just think the world's going to be a better place. And I just think people have to learn. Is it ever going to be non-violent? No, no. But it's going to be a better place, and I think if we keep doing this, we will. I really do.

Yeah, it's great. I agree. And I really appreciate one, your service, and I appreciate you coming on the show, Chris. This has been great. We covered a lot. I can't believe actually we've already been talking for over an hour.

Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate it.

Before you go, we're going to read you guaranty, Chris, just to make sure that you got your head in the right place. Thank everyone for listening too. If you've made it this far in the episode, I appreciate it. And don't forget that training changes behavior.