L.O.G. 208 What Really Happened

Perfect. Alright, so it's recording, Greg. Sorry everyone for the sort of cold start. New little thing I'm trying out on here with a little AI tool for transcription and things. So it's kind of a cold start. We get dropped into it this morning.

Anyway, today, Greg, we're going to be talking about the recent shooting in Texas where, late at night, a neighbor comes over, asks the guy, "Hey, can you please stop shooting? Kids are asleep. One-month-old just trying to sleep. It's nighttime." And he does the, "Screw you, get out of here. I'll do whatever I want on my front lawn." Goes back. They try to call police multiple times. The guy ends up coming over and killing five people after that initial altercation. This stuff gets played on the news. There's a manhunt. He actually just got captured a few days later. And again, this is May 4th when we're recording this, so any details we have are up to about that date.

May the Fourth be with you.

Exactly. So we're talking about this case because these things pop up and I feel that everyone gets this stuff wrong, so we don't ever learn anything from these things. Everyone's either going to say, "Well, it's about the gun, and if he didn't have the gun, this wouldn't happen." And then other people are saying, "Well, they're all illegal immigrants, they shouldn't have been here, and he shouldn't have been here anyway, so if we had this happen, then he would never have been able to do this." Other people will say, "Well, if you had different laws on the books, this could have happened. If we had more law enforcement resources, it wouldn't have taken a couple hours or whatever it was to get there." Because we would have had everyone picks what they know, or what they think, or what they like, and they run with it. They put that as that's the issue here that we need to address.

I think most of those are wrong, although those are things that you need to look at in terms of how you could respond better, how you could prevent something. There are different ways to look at it, but I want to talk about what this was really about, Greg. Why do these things happen? How do these happen? Why do they happen? And how do we prevent them from happening? Because we keep seeing this stuff happening, it happens all the time. It's getting highlighted a lot more now in the news because people are losing interest in whatever else is going on in the world, so now we're shifting our focus to this. I kind of want to get into this because we don't ever learn anything by politically grandstanding after these things and taking some issue, and I'm going to put my ideology on it, and this is what we need to happen. It gets annoying and frustrating because it never helps prevent the next one.

All of these things, including this guy, what does it take for someone to walk into a house and start killing people, including women, children, and all that? There's a lot going on there, and that stuff leaks out beforehand. Just like the other case, the recent one, the mass event in Oklahoma that we did for our Patreon subscribers. We're not going to talk about that on here, but another example. So we get into how do these things happen? Why does someone do this? How can I identify these sort of stress fractures that are appearing in people that cause this?

I don't know where we want to start other than, maybe, what is it, how does someone go from getting asked politely by a neighbor, "Hey, do you mind going down the road a bit shooting your gun because my one-month-old son is trying to go to bed," which seems like a fairly reasonable thing to ask your neighbor. How does it go from that to five people being killed, a manhunt across that state, and this happening? There's obviously a lot going on underneath that. Whatever that moment was then was sort of the contributing factor or reason why he decided to say, "You know what, not today." So I kind of want to throw you to start it because there's a lot of other things we can talk about in here, including some other recent events, but I want to cut through all the ideological nonsense to get to the human behavior aspect.

Well, then let me fast-rope in on a couple of comments that you made to set the stage. That's right, because that's a great preamble and I agree with everything that you said on this one. So I sent you a couple of notes just maybe 10 or 15 minutes ago to show you the different newspaper articles that covered it. I read print news still, and I go online to find my news. I don't watch TV news because I don't want the biased influence in me before I get to the facts. Then, just like you do, I yellow pad those things and I pile those notes.

So here's the thing I read over and over and over: "Hondurans in Mexicans," "Latino Community." First of all, scrub all that crap. Humans are humans everywhere that something happens, right? Now, we may take a look at something because it said the suspect, Oropeza, had been deported four times. Well, that can be scurrilous or spurious. Why? Because being deported and being a prior deported felon are two completely different standards. So now, if we were talking about a person that was a prior deported felon in possession of a firearm, then a comment like Sheriff Capers' (the sheriff of San Jacinto County, Texas) – that's the greatest title in the world, by the way, Capers – told reporters over and over that Oropeza was known frequently to fire an AR-15 in his front yard, and that they had been there numerous times. Some neighbors corroborated that.

So what am I trying to say there? Well, I'm trying to say that again, here we have shitty, short-sleeve reporting that left out many facts that we need but added what you talked about: this crap that doesn't need to be there. For example, seams and gaps. Why is it important that there were only a couple of deputies for 700 square miles? Brian, that's a fact they should have dug into, because if you're going to Alaska on a hike or a fishing expedition and you go without bear spray or a PFAC, then you're an idiot. So, if you live in one of these remote locations and you don't have some sort of emergency plan, Brian, you're just begging for trouble. You get it?

The other end of that seesaw where it goes up and down is, do people sometimes choose to live in outlying areas because they do want to be left alone? And then you've kind of got a different lifestyle choice. You get where I'm going with?

Oh, yeah.

Those are the issues we should be paddle digging for, and they never come up to it. And let me go one more, and then we're going to Gator. They go to Ms. Pineda, and this is the quote out of the paper, and remember, we're talking about the Washington Post, New York Times, we're not talking about some local high school paper. She said she didn't know Mr. Oropeza. She said she didn't know his family, but she did know that they'd been living there about five years and that they were known for hosting parties late into the night. So which is it? And what is that? You get what I'm trying to say?

So, have you ever met the family? No, I haven't. Could you comment on it? You see where I'm going.

Yeah.

So that's right, because part of what that does, well, really what that does is kind of, it muddies the waters, right? Even it diminishes the journalist is trying to get a saying or something or get some information, but the person says, "Well, I don't really know," but then, "I heard." It's like, okay, if you're already starting with hearsay. Then you're not, but you're not a good, you're not, you're a witness, you're on it. But and this is how much you get spun out of control, right?

And words matter. So when a copper says that there had been a couple of calls, yeah, to Oropeza's home. "Couple" is different than "few." Those words matter, and there's a statistical number assigned to those words, so don't go throwing those words out from your PIO (Public Information Officer) if you're not willing to back those up.

The other thing is like the dispatcher. They said they, and I can't remember the number of calls, but they said that there were numerous calls about this incident. And that, I think it said four.

I think four or five. Yeah.

Yeah, and the idea is that would fit. But then the question came up about response time to those calls. Again, Brian, you know, we're talking about time. The big thing a year ago was number of shots fired. Now all of a sudden it's about response time, and we're not going to be able to get off that response time. Now, if I wanted to read something, Brian, I don't know if you remember this, but you and I had talked about this in 2012. But in 2012, because we were coming in and out of Saudi Arabia, that Kingdom, the celebratory gunfire at the wedding shot the electric cables. It fell into the party, and 23 people were killed. Like a couple dozen or something.

Yeah, okay.

Remember that caper? And you see that stuff all the time on videos, right? And celebratory gunfire is very common in the place we went. You remember my story when we were together about the Chaldean Club in Warren and the weekly shooting? Remember my July Iraq where I thought the whole city was erupting, and I was ready to get some on, and I thought we were going to be overrun, and it was Iraq had just won a very prominent soccer game, and everyone was like, "Okay, how many people almost died that day because of that?" But it's common, right? So, taking something that is extraordinary, where we get the word "extraordinary" from, and trying to make it commonplace, we have to understand cultural norms in this context. Why? Because culture is context.

So we know that Central, South America, Latin America communities deal with machismo. This plays right into human behavior. So if I'm being challenged and I've already got alcohol on board, ethanol, and I'm armed, you're now complicating the calculus by adding things onto a normal situation. Now, do you remember the video with the shovel in the snow? What did it end with? It ended with three dead, Brian.

A couple people died. Yeah. How long did it take?

So, the idea is the guy killed a couple, and then he went back and shot himself. Here we got a situation where this guy's behavior is being normalized. He routinely goes out and shoots in his yard. That part might not be illegal. He might not supposed to be having a firearm, that's something that we didn't get followed up on. And there are allegations that there's alcohol. Well, I'll tell you what, I was a copper for a good long time, and everywhere I go, it's a crime to carry a firearm while you're under the influence of alcohol or substances. Now, you and I didn't do a BAC, so we don't know that, but merely the allegation that those things were going on increases the risk.

Okay, so you and I were just doing a cost-benefit analysis, right? What would we say? We would say one, this was after 11 PM in Texas. Now, I don't know Texas well enough to figure out what the sun was doing at 11 o'clock.

It wasn't high in the sky. Exactly. It wasn't bright.

Okay. We're also talking about the guy that routinely shoots. Does he routinely shoot just before nighttime, and a family comes with a legitimate complaint? But that legitimate complaint is exacerbated by what? By the guy's home rule. "I'm standing on my ground. I'm shooting my," and "I've had a couple of drinks, so are you insulting me? Is this what happened right in front of your family?" Right? So to me, that's a much more logical path to follow, Brian. I would have gone there.

It is. And, you know, that's why I kind of brought up like, you know, stress fractures and what we see in that stuff. Because, and I was kind of talking about this, it's what I get into arguments sometimes with my good buddies who are, you know, really, you know, they shoot a lot and have a ton of guns. And, you know, like, I'm all for them doing that. They're, you know, that's what they do, that's their hobby. But, you know, because, you know, a lot of them too were Special Operations and did different specialized units, and just have been shooting since they were kids. And it's so normalized to them that it becomes, that becomes a problem because it's like, "Well, hang on, man. You did that in a certain context for a really long time. In this context, that's not normal. Like, you shouldn't hear those things. Like, this, this shouldn't go on."

I mean, him like, "I'm shooting in my front yard and saying, 'You know, I'll do what I want in my front yard,' was the quote that they, they quoted him saying that evening. You know, that's it." You, you don't have the, like, okay, you can do what you want on your property, absolutely. But you, you know, you're, you're free to do as what you want so long as you're not impeding on the rights of others. And they have a right to their own privacy, and you live in a community, and the person is close enough to hear that. You know, you have a duty to your fellow citizen in your society. Even if it was a loud music complaint.

Yeah, it doesn't matter what it is.

Right? You know, the same thing. Exactly. You can, you don't get to do that. You don't get to bother other people with your actions. You know, that's where it crosses the line. And I think because some of the stuff becomes so normalized, like, people go, "Well, you know, it wasn't a big deal, you know, they're always shooting." It's like, no, not at this time, and not during this. And now that there's alcohol, but you could smell that if you're close up. Now he said something to you. Okay, these are all adding up. And kind of the reason why these things keep happening too, it's, it's people walk into those situations and go and and don't, you know, they don't expect that to ever occur. They don't think.

You're not calculating the risk, Brian. You're exactly right. And do me a favor, and I hate to interrupt you, but what part of that happened because there were Hondurans, or that there were Mexicans, or there were women? You see what I'm saying? There's immigration status, or the type of, the caliber of the weapon. Like, what, what does that happen? What does a weapon caliber have to do with it? And shout out to Jeff Williams, comment on this, Jeff, if we're off the wrong track because I don't know Texas as well as some other people. But let me tell you this, okay. I know that every state that I've ever operated in had some statute or law against displaying a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place or in a manner calculated to cause alarm. Now, Brian, any Texas law enforcement officer listening, all of our friends that live in Texas, I'm assuming that if you add intoxication or suspected intoxication and threatening manner while possessing a firearm, Brian, those are, that's a recipe for what? How, what's the outcome? You tell me.

You know, so if your risk, look, Jenga is a risk, right? When you're playing, and you get up there, and you start pulling the different pieces out, if all of a sudden your math, your mental math adds up that this might be an incident where this person is going to point that gun at me and shoot, then you got to back off. You got to wait for those coppers. You got to take the people in the car and drive down the, the next neighborhood. Listen, how fast does rage come on?

Well, it's a human-based emotion, so that, that's what we're, we're kind of getting to in this, right? Because we've called them rage attacks before, and that's, that's what happens in these situations. You know, it's not unlike the, you know, the, the recent one again where, you know, kids, you know, ding-dong ditch the house, guy chases after him and he kills them, they, or they die in a car accident, right, because he's chasing after them. You know, it's, it's what, no one, no one's doing that math. The kids weren't doing that math when they, they were going to ding-dong ditch them. I think ding-dong ditching someone is about the lowest level public nuisance thing you could possibly do, followed only by lighting the bag of paper bags. At least that one, that one actually has some consequences and potential danger too. Ringing someone's door, and if you're sitting there behind that door waiting to kill anything that comes up, I think you're the problem.

I mean, you're exactly right. So, so what separated a caper a couple of years ago where the boy and the girl repeatedly broke into the guy's house? And about the third or fourth time that there was a burglary, the guy lay in wait, waited until they came into the house, shot the boy and the girl, tried to get away, and shot the girl. And you remember that incident? Well, look, that's a calculated ambush. Okay? And you're saying, "Well, you have the right to defend your home." Yeah, but you don't have the right to create a premeditated murder situation that demonstrates intent by doing it. Okay? So, so go back to yours. And first of all, I've never liked the title "ding-dong ditch" because that's not what we called it grown up. And every time I hear that, it sounds like a fun, happy thing, right? It sounds like going in and collecting candy on Halloween's.

Doorbell, running away, yeah, yes.

Yeah, the two incidents you alluded to: the guy that crashed into the vehicle at 90 miles an hour, killing the kids in the vehicle, he just got convicted. Okay, and that's homicide, that's murder. Okay, that's intentional. And then the other guy that was months before that one, because you remember there were very in close proximity.

Yeah.

Held up, blocked their car at the cul-de-sac and came out shooting, Brian. It just was blatantly, you know, blasting away in the car. So, once you get on rage, rage has to run its course. Rage has to abate on its own. So, negotiation at that point, like if you remember reading some of the different articles that came out about this caper, one of the females said, "Well, we're safe because he's not going to shoot a female." That was a cultural thing that she thought about.

Yeah.

Until he killed half the people in the first house he went to, right? You see how that, you can't judge a person that's in rage and saying, "Okay, okay, hold on. It's unlikely that they're going to do this. They probably won't." No, you, they're, they're going to, if you're in their way, they're going to, they're going to come right through you. There's no stopping that. And that's, that's an important thing to predict that rage is going to occur, but not where it's going to pour out. It's like a tornado, right?

So let's, let's, let's sort of, let's sort of talk about, let's talk about rage for a second then. And, and because, you know, there's rage can come from different things. You know, you can be immediately in the moment, see something and go spill right over into rage. You can slowly build in anger and resentment, and, and just inter-mental turmoil, whatever the hell you want to call it. You can, you can have that build up over time, and then some seemingly small incident is the one that pushes you over. "Hey, a neighbor telling you to, 'Hey, do you mind not shooting right now?'" You know, whatever those things are. But can you explain what you mean then when you say like, what's the difference between there and what you mean by, you know, rage, you know, has to run its course? Because we, we've said it a lot, but I don't know if we've really done the deep dive on what we mean by it.

So, let's talk about you and I, because the folks that listen to us routinely will know each of us set an operational tempo, and we usually keep to it. Every once in a while, when you and I are talking about a deeply emotional subject that comes very close to who we are, we'll drop the F-bomb, or we'll go into a tirade. Yeah, that's a form of rage, a very low level starting to leak out. And you, usually we can hold that in. Usually, I would say you're getting angry, and you're getting upset, but I don't want to say, I don't want to say just anger. And you just nailed it: anger and being upset and being anxious. So, every emotion has a bandwidth, yeah, just like a music, just like a song going out, right? And, and what happens when you go to the ends of those? Look, do it this way: Roy G. Biv. Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. When you go to the fire extreme on the violet, okay, you have ultraviolet above violet, or you go in for a red before red. So anger is like that, Brian, your emotions are like that. Happiness is like that. Have you ever seen anybody just start laughing, okay, or be very happy in the moment because they saw, or they smelled, or they felt something? Well, if you can feel that on the fringe of that emotional spectrum, okay, then, then also anxiety can build up to the point where you go, "Hey, just screw it, get off my back." And then that anger, when it outbursts like that, Brian, all those emotions pour through that crack and they keep going. And another thing. Do you see what I'm saying? So.

Right.

If I manifest that by having a French knife in the kitchen, I might actually turn around and point to you, indicating you with that French knife because it's, it's local, it's, it's handy, and it also means something. So now what I've done is I've turned a simple tool into a weapon because I'm demonstrating intent. So the, the anger has to abate. Anger reaches a threshold, it breaks out like you put a piece of paper in the fireplace. The fireplace has been going, right, but it's kind of, you know, going down low. So you roll up the paper, John Candy, and you stick it in the gosh darn thing, and then what happens? All of a sudden it bursts and it rages, Brian. And then guess what happens? It goes back down to what where it was before, but you can't time that. You can't figure out how long that's going to be.

And different things. Exactly.

And you can't, and, and that sort of that difference between the anger and rage is like, you can operate in anger, you can get angry about something. I can get up, I can walk outside, I can take a deep breath, and immediately lower my blood pressure and heart rate, and start walking myself back. But once, like you said, it gets to that action of that, that sort of that, that rage where, nope, this is it now, like you said, everything that I've had, it doesn't matter, it's the, I'm exactly not just angry at this, everything that's going on in my life, and then, you know what, the White Sox are playing like crap this year, and then the neighbor comes over and says that. Each one on their own is meaning not meaningless, but each one is only a little bit, and any human sights like that, but when all coupled together, and now I have some significant event or, or something significant to me, oh, now you're going to, you're going to say I can't do something like this on my own property. Oh, now I can't even do what I want here. I'm having a hard enough time out in society, but here in my safe place, in my home, in my castle, you're going to, a minute ago, I was laughing, and now you're up in my grill.

So, so let me get the flash to bang on it. It's so quick, right? And that's why you can't measure it. That's why you can predict weather, but you can't measure it. Exactly. I can give you the barometric pressure, and everyone's a little bit different when they hit that point, right? So maybe you can take more alcohol or drugs or a lack of sleep, Brian. So, so I'll give you a parallel. So, you know, I've had to testify as an expert witness in use of force cases and a bunch of different courts across the country. Well, one of them was a caper where a guy wanted to leave the hospital, and the hospital kind of wasn't ready for him to leave yet. So what happened is the two untrained security guards that worked there began to use physical restraints, arm holds, arm bars, which the person was just slipping out of because he was wet and he wasn't wearing a lot of clothes, and he wanted to leave. Yeah.

Well, then one of the people latched on with a lateral vascular neck restraint that was misapplied that started cutting off the vagus nerve and cutting off the oxygen. Once that person's body sensed that they couldn't breathe, there was an outburst of energy, and he clawed and fought and bit viciously until he was safe again in his brain, and then he calmed down, and they were able to tase him and take him into custody and do everything else. So what they had done is, in that bandwidth of rage, they had charged them with three different assaults, and this and that and all that other stuff. You can't do that because he wasn't there. He wasn't even there, Brian, because what happened is his physical corporeal body, his brain said, "I'm dying, and I need to claw out of this."

And you know what's the most unnatural thing in the world for humans? Ask any of your Seal friends. We all have a bunch of Seal friends, Brian. Going underwater. You know why? Because the second you put your head underwater, your brain is saying, "I'm going to die. I got to get out of this situation." That's why a lot of people can't get through those, that, that training or certain aspects of it because their brain's taking over going, "No, you, you can't do this," even though you can train to, to stay under there longer or do things, you can't.

Yeah, people are better, and some people can't. So if your brain in your body are already set up physiologically to defend against certain externals, now we add things like culture as context with the machismo, and now we add alcohol to the equation, and the person has a gun in their hands, Brian, I'm going right back to my argument, it's a recipe. It's a recipe for disaster. And that, that comment any other day at 12 noon while you're out there would have meant nothing. And, and even there was an argument made in one of the stories that the guy had shown no stress fractures for crap because he was friends with the neighbor and actually came and helped them take down a tree in his yard. Yeah, that doesn't matter. It really doesn't.

We, we attribute that, see, or no, you're, what we've talked about, your basic fundamental attribution error.

Okay, my neighbor helped me, you know, this one time, carry, you know, garbage cans down the street, and let me borrow the wheelbarrow, and even came over and helped move some of the dirt. You must be a good person. I had no idea he's, you know, making, you know, lampshades out of human skin in his basement. It's like, yeah, well, you, you can operate at that frequency and be a contributing member of society and be seemingly normal on the surface and have other, but that's too terrifying to think of because a lot of people don't understand that because they're not those people. Most people are normal and good people and would help out and don't do any of those things. So they don't see it in others when they go, "Well, what could be underneath that surface?" Because there's always something that's going to, that's going to bleed out, whether it's a comment, whether it's a, you know, "I kind of felt a little odd near that guy."

Exactly.

You, you have to listen to those things, and you, you can get better at it, but, but, you know, we, everyone throws those things in, "Well, I saw him do this one time, and he's singing in the church choir." It's like, that's great. It doesn't, doesn't mean anything. And you have to go with, with what is it that they're leaking out, especially with, with their behavior, not just what they're, with what they're saying, but, but words do matter in this stuff because it's a way to keep it.

Exactly.

But communication is done in a number of forms. I might communicate with words, I might communicate with actions, communicate with, "No, I'm going to keep shooting out here." That's a method of communication. "I'm not going to cut my, my lawn anymore even though I'm supposed to, and the HOA says I am." That's all sort of a form of communication. It's a way to speak out and transmit to the world, and everyone chooses their own way of doing it, and we do it without realizing. You do your inaction could be something. We're just, I won't get, don't get into any details on a call that was getting very annoying, and, you know, the person and was being, you know, both deliberately not clear and being a kind of a jerk about it. It always really realized he was being such a jerk about it, but definitely was and treating people incorrectly. And I asked my question, and when I didn't get the answer I wanted and I got treated that way, I, what did I do? I tuned out, checked the heck out, pulled up my, I was like, "Got to get a new battery for the for the Tundra, so I'm going to start looking at those online right now." And I just didn't even pay attention to the rest of the call, and then at the end went, "Wait, what are we doing? Oh, okay, I got it." And it because why? But that was my method of coping with that, rather than putting off the top rail, I'm like, "Well, if this is how you're going to treat me, I'm not going to give you the attention that you're demanding right now."

I've seen ours. Your remarks are so important. I want to just dovetail on it. I've seen our CEO Shelley in a half dozen shootings, and I've seen her in probably two dozen fights. And I mean physical altercations.

With you. Okay. Yeah, exactly. I wish.

Shelley operates at a level of anger, yeah, but if you don't know her, you wouldn't understand. But I've never seen her fight angry, no. And I've never seen her in a shooting angry. She was completely calm, blood pressure's in the 60s, right, arresting subjects, tackling, fighting with a number of people in a thing where I was going, "Like, does she know how big she is and where she is?" Right? But you know me, and you've seen me flip my lid and lose my mind on things that you would have probably bet he's never going to say anything about those. So if you think that you can predict, like, for example, you can predict if the person lies to you that they're going to continue to lie to you. Why? Because the leopard doesn't change its spots. The best predictor of past behavior is future behavior.

But Shelley runs angry all day long, yeah, and she's angry about everything, and she'll, and it actually gets funny because, yeah, it's hilarious. It's a bear once in a while to go, "What do you think about that, Shelly?" "Nope!" You can hear it in the other room, and it's funny, right? But Shelley isn't the person that's going to do what we saw here because she's in control over emotions. But there's going to be the right blend, Brian. It's going to be that day that it's a little too early for that joke and the wrong thing, and then it brings up her son. You get, you get what I'm saying? And now what do we get? Like your STDs (Shitty Things Done), we get the perfect storm. Okay, a virulent stuff that's coming out. And Brian, you're not going to be able to cage it in at that rage. Rage is when you cannot pen in that STD or emotion. And I believe it's the perfect storm of venereal diseases.

Yeah, well, you know, you, you got the award, read it off, read it off the beaker.

But no, but think about it, we're not making fun of Brian's STDs too much. But, but think about it, though, Brian, that perfect storm comes up. So, as a normal, clinically human in your environment, you have to predict where that might happen. So, Brian likes to talk about gas stations. Why?

Yeah. Because gas stations, cars, that type of.

No, no, I would add parking lots, okay? Because the gas station by itself any parking lot is is more white belt, yeah, but it's exactly right. So, so if you're in that, like, like somebody's going to go, "Oh my God, here we go again." If you're out in public, you're going to be at risk. No, you're not. You might be at risk of getting hit by a space lab that's fallen, you know, from a couple of miles above the Earth. But the idea is you sometimes fail to predict those situations that are going to get you in the trick bag. And this is one time, Brian, the, the comment that I highlighted from all of the reports that I read on this is, "He went in to shoot people who were getting ready for bed." Think about that.

Yeah.

Think about that. So, so this isn't normal. This didn't happen in a normal context, and it had nothing to do with the Honduran habits of sleep and, and, you know, the, the legal advisor, just to stir the pot, they went to the Second Amendment advocate named Grisham, and he says the use of the AR-15 style handgun is meaningless because he could have killed those people with a handgun. Yeah, he could have killed him with a hammer. And the whole idea of bringing that up and then in the article citing Tennessee and the other Oklahoma and all that other stuff, Brian, that's salacious. That's what it is.

And, well, to me, it's just very, it adds no value to the conversation. Like, it's not, it's just like you're, you're bringing up things because you have some political agenda, and that's why, you know.

Exactly right.

So, so why don't we talk about the facts of the case, how, what, and how we can learn from this and how we can learn to cope because people are under pressure. And like, you're, you're getting this bombarded with stuff all the time. I, I don't know, is the economy good? Is it bad? What does this interest rate thing mean to me? Like, like, it's all this constant bombardment of stuff, and I, and, and it's still, we talked about it during COVID, and when there was, you know, we, people weren't going to work, and they were saying, you know, what, what happens in those situations? And people still haven't coped with it or realized that everyone's just like, "Well, we're just going to forget about it and go on." It's not a thing anymore. It's like, this all affected everyone, right?

And with this lack of communication, Pablo had a great little post on LinkedIn, and he was kind of making a joke, but he's trying to get people to go to that event, yeah, extra thing. And he, he, but he pulled some stats showing like from the CDC, like how, how, you know, it was something like lack of social interaction is the, like over time is the equivalent of smoking, like, you know, 15 cigarettes a day or something like that.

Here, precisely. It was really, it was like he was trying to, but it's so true. And then so now we, we factor this in, and everyone's under pressure. Now, maybe I'm not supposed to be here, maybe I'm not supposed to have this gun, maybe I'm just in here, you're working, trying to get my family and, you know, pay for bills. And then now this erupts into all this. I have this, this pressure, and, and we don't realize that as humans, like, this, the, the people, some people are out there that are just kind of ticking time bombs, right?

Exactly. So, so let's talk about that for a second, Brian. Is it likely that our shooter here knew that the cops were on the way? And the answer is clearly yes, because a number of people said that he said, "I've called the cops." He already knew, yeah, right? So he knew that. Is it likely that if he was deported before that the situation was probably similar? Yeah, so, you know, it's good to have left. He should have gone inside. He should have stopped. So we know that rage attached at that point because he wasn't thinking clearly, might have been the alcohol, might have been a bunch of other factors. But we know that's likely.

So here's what we can prove: we can prove that he ditched the gun when he was running, and he didn't run to the house. He didn't run and barricade himself, Brian. He ditched the gun, he left the gun in his house, and he didn't take a daypack. So the coppers and the UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) and the drones and everything, they started searching the area to go, "Man, we lost him." He had family in the area, yeah, and he also went to ground within two miles. So we can prove intent. He intended to flee because he knew what he had done is wrong. That's a logical string that we can tie.

And, and he went to ground. Why, Brian? Because he knew he was unlikely to get out of that area, so he relied on his friends. The rage had abated, and now that's a good point. "Okay, this happened. Holy crap, I just killed all these people. I'm in deep trouble. I got to go." But like you said, he didn't take his weapons with him. So this wasn't a family area, "I'm gone," and tried to run. And then what did he do? He's like, "Well, I don't know what to do, so I'm going to go hide." I think he was found even like within a couple miles of his sister's house or something like that.

Which is why, yeah. And family helped hide him, and he was in the laundry room under clothes. Yeah, this is why when, if we would have been asked to consult on this early on, we would have made all these points. Everybody listen to us, we would have said that there's a reason he ditched his weapon. There's a reason he didn't take weapons. He's going to be within this radius with family members. He's not going to shoot it out with you, he's unlikely. Right? Those are unlikely factors. Why is that important? Because I think something that was just below the surface, you remember that the article that came out the day after said, "This guy's still on run." Four days, I believe. Check your own facts, folks. But the one the next day is, "We have no idea where he is. He could be anywhere." Those articles came out because the news media had to publish something, they got to keep it up in her face. But I think that law enforcement didn't know exactly what we do, and they, they didn't want to push, push and get him to say, "Hey, I'm going to run," or "I'm going to shoot it out." And what's the best way? We have to let that anger level, that anxiety abate again. And we've got to go very methodical. How far could he get on foot? Does, does he likely have a vehicle? Where's his clothes? You're going to go to some place known to you, you're going to go with something, you're going to seek familiarity in those situations.

Yeah. It was him going to a family or friend, and even, you know, ditching the guns and everything, and he didn't need any of that for what? So I mean, you got to think about it in that moment, you know, the guy that stops to pick up the wad of cash or the gun that he, you know, is carrying while he's being chased, it's very important to them. The guy that just ditches it is like, "I don't, I don't need that. There's no reason, I'm not getting to use it."

Precisely. He didn't accidentally drop it. The sling didn't break while he was crawling through the brush. All of those are the most important factors. And you started the episode by saying, "What's important?" Those are important. Not that the guy's Honduran, not the guy was reported, not that the guy who came through the El Paso border crossing. And what happens is those actually hang on to a story and make the story less important over time. And it, you know, and everyone uses it then as a, as a rallying cry for some political agenda that they have. And, and that you're, which means, you know, you're, you're trading on the, on the deaths of these, these innocent people, and that's what you're doing, standing on the bodies to get ahead to, and whichever direction you're going with that legislation, I don't care, that's what you're doing. And, and so, and why does that, does that fix anything? No.

No. Let's add one more. You said, "Hey, there's no, you know, shooting past this time," or something because it's a nuisance. Okay, that makes sense. There's normal nuisance laws in every city ever, you know what I mean? Like that, that's, that's, that's a common thing everywhere because you don't have the right to just annoy the crap out of your neighbors.

No, no, but it could have been music.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love the way you're going with that because you got to be just, I don't want to say black and white on that because it's never completely black or completely white, but it's certainly much more binary than they made it. So I'll give you an example, and probably my last example of something that pissed me off. They said that of the victims, and I can't remember who casually made the comment, "Nobody should have to see a crime scene like this." I'm paraphrasing. Each one of the victims was shot at close range in the head, and it appeared to be assassination-like. Okay, but, well, I don't know what "execution style" means because if you're, you're shooting someone with a gun, you're trying to kill them. So, so, so has intent been met? Yeah, yeah. And, and the idea is that this is an easier way to prove intent because he closed with the target and then he shot him in their most vulnerable place.

Why am I saying that, Brian? If he was out shooting in the yard and he just turned and fired five rounds into the house from his position at his right and said, "Kiss my ass!" and just fired wildly and hit somebody, Brian, that's a different from cold-blooded murder. You get what I'm trying to say? Or a heat of passion crime that drops it right down to, you know, manslaughter. Okay, voluntary or involuntary. Why is that important? Those are the important things that people need to understand. When you pull up in my driveway and I'm not expecting it, all the hype is armed home invasion, and I start shooting. Those are things that can be expected, and we whip our own society into a fervor and don't tell people, "Calm down, nothing's likely to happen. These are extraordinary events." But you also have to be in charge of your own personal safety, and you have to write your own algorithm, and you have to notice when constellations of clues start to form, Brian. And if those clues say, "Opportunity, go get the," you know, the sign just came on, "A Krispy Kreme, go get your free donut," or "Danger, hey, Krispy Kreme's door is propped open, and I don't see anybody behind the counter." You get it? You got to do that again.

Because we don't analyze these things very well, and it gets played out in the media so often, and people like this, this creates inevitability in other people's minds, right? The more I see it, the more I think like, you know, meanwhile, you know, three million people knocked on someone's door that day, and the interaction went fine, and, you know, nothing happened. But because the guy got punched in the nose. Right.

So, well, that, that's what I mean. And then, and if I, if, if I'm consuming this, like, "Oh my, here it goes," and it happened again, and again, it's going to happen to me. You know, if I create that inevitability in my mind, I'm, I'm adding to that. I mean, all, you know, that's what, that's how it works. It's how these things, that's how social contagion works. I mean, you know, I mean, that, that's, that's literally, I, I see something happen, I think it's the most important thing that's likely going to happen to me. It's now a possibility that it's going to happen to me, and it makes it more likely, right? And the more I see it, the more it confirms my own belief that this will happen.

You're absolutely correct. And I would add the allegory of Cape again. You're sitting further from the fire, yeah, and now those dancing images that you see are a little more menacing, and now I'm a little more afraid to fall asleep because I think what's happening in the other room. Brian, every time I read those articles and when they conflate them and say, "Here's just another example of the United States and society going crazy." The Serbian kid that shot up his school, killed the security guard first, shot the kids in the school, and then went back home, put his weapons away, and called the police and said, "I am the kid that just did it. Here was my plans, here's everything." So everybody settle out, it's just like a U.S. shooting. No, it's not. What U.S. shooting did a kid go home and call the cops and say, "Hey, I was going"? Yeah, but by conflating those and adding the, the black people that got shot by the 85-year-old white kid, and Brian, we're putting crap in bundles that don't fit. Yeah. We're washing our whites with our colors on hot, and then we're wondering why the high temperature ruined our, our clothing. This is what's happening to the fabric of society.

Yeah, and, and the conflating those, it makes it, it just makes it easier to get confused, and then when we're confused, we don't understand something, we're scared. And, and, and we don't make, you can drive rage as well.

Yes, come on. Absolutely.

That's, you know, and fear-based decisions are never good decisions. I mean, they're just not. And, and you fear what he did, what was it, you know, I think you said one time fear is very myopic, right? It doesn't, it's very laser-focused. When you are scared, you care about you and you only. And, and that's what you're going to fall back on. And that fear is just, I mean, there's a lot of people that are scared out there. They're really.

Exactly.

That's where this stuff comes down to. It's fear. And then, you know, the constant buildup of anxiety of everything that I see. And if I don't get some time and distance, if I don't get some space, I don't change the perspective and try to understand something, I'm always going to be scared. And, and those decisions are never good. But, you know, if you can learn to understand and see these things and not be scared, actually, it's, it's, I feel like you have a lot more opportunity.

I don't know, so what do we try to do? Yeah, when we have these discussions, and this is a great discussion, I'm really enjoying today. And the funny thing is, I also enjoyed our Patreon, and the topics that we're talking about are horrific, yeah, terrible things. So why do we have fun during these ones? Because we're showing people, you don't have to look at this as a dead-end road. You don't have to look at this as a self-licking ice cream cone or self-fulfilling prophecy. There is a way out, and the way out isn't just going, "Here we go again." That's not a way out.

No, it's not a choice. It's, it's taking, you know, trying to take a clinical approach, and what we do too on here is, you know, separate the emotion from the event, right? Because that, that's never, that's, that, that clouds kind of productive way the way you look at things. I mean, these are, you know, some innocent people lost their lives. We're not being callous about that fact. In fact, we're being, I think, more respectful than a lot of people who will grandstand on this and take advantage of those, those poor folks that did it, is we're trying to say, "Look, these are the things that occur leading up to these events. This is what you can see. This is how they coalesce together. And so when you're in those situations, you have to be able to understand like, 'Oh, wait, this is one of those things that they were talking about,' right? It's now starting to add up." Because that changes my intervention strategy. You know, if, if that guy had known and understood all of this, he probably never would have went over there and said anything to the guy. And you know what? And, and the guy, what, what he was still doing was maybe wrong, but his family would still be alive. And I'm not victim blaming. I'm not saying it, it would have been sleepy, they might have been late for work, but they'd be alive.

Yeah.

And, and, and you can deal, deal with things in the clear light of day, not in the middle of the moment in the middle of the night when it's happening. If I, if I can choose those two, I'm going to choose the clear light of the day when I can get someone else to show up and I can actually get that police presence, maybe if it's necessary, and I can see what I can do. You know, I mean, that, that's the thing. It's like drag it out in the light, don't, don't try to solve the problem right now. Get some time and distance. And I think those, they're just looking at it from that effect. There's rarely a situation where it's so immediate and so emergent that you have to go running in there and try to, you know, squash it right now. There's, those are very, very rare, and they're obvious when they, when they do happen. I mean, that's exactly.

They're so obvious. So let's obviate one. How many times in your life have you heard the term "church fight?" And, and taking the current alcohol, I don't want you to listen to this, I want you to listen, so "church fight" on my left hand compared to "bar fight" on the right hand. Which one is the most common, and which one trumps any right attempt? Right? And we're not talking about walking into a mosque with a body bomb, Brian. I'm talking about a good old-fashioned church fight. They don't happen. It is so rare that it would be remarkable. But a bar fight, now people are going, "Well, you're oversimplifying." No, I'm not. No, I'm giving you the menu. I'm handing you the menu, and on my menu there's a recipe. So if you want to talk about chicken fried steak, you can clearly see at the end of every podcast Greg gets hungry. But if we're going to be talking about chicken fried steak with a couple of sunny-side up eggs on some hash browns, oh my God, I'm hungry. What, what I'm going to do, Brian, at the bottom is I'm going to not only give you the recipe to make them, but I'm going to give you the calories and the fat grams. Why is that important? Right? Because if you do the calculus, Brian, you'll know your own best answer. And what happens though is, "I'm going to go over, say something now." "Just stay here, I'm going to go over and say something." "Just wait for them to arrive." Right?

Well, it's you're to stick with that sort of a, the food analogy, I guess. Um, it's, well, it's, it's the, it's the, it's the snacking example. Yes. Well, I only had a little bit here, well, and a little bit here, and a little bit here. It's like, yeah, you ate a massive bag of chips over the course of seven hours. Like, you, you didn't notice it because you had a handful, and then you went back and had another handful, and then, yeah, each handful is nothing, you can, you can burn that off just fine. But you had 15 gosh darn handfuls spread out over a day or two, like that, that's when it occurs. It's the small, subtle change, those little things. It's always the little thing. I talk about that even with the, even with the family. I was like, we were talking about that with the baby coming and everything too. I was like, "Hey, like, I want to focus on the little things because it's the little things that matter," right? We don't, that's what matters. We don't, we don't have to have some big, "Here's how we're going to change everything, and this is the comprehensive program." It's like, "We're going to focus on the little things every single day, and then over time, look at what that's going to do." And, and, you know, it's with the, the insurgent here, I'm going to add one more thing that you're going to have to get done every week because you're going to have to start helping out now before. I want to get her on that track so she's used to doing these chores and responsibilities before the baby comes, right? So if these little things, so that way when the event occurs, so it's not, it's, it's not a catastrophic change of the way we do things. It doesn't, that the record doesn't spin out of control and you have to get restarted. It just falls into that groove. And, and the, these are all examples, and I love your, your church fight versus your bar fight. Think about that example. It's, you know, that it's, it's perfect because we went certain locations, right? When events coalesce, things are going to happen. When I ask, when I add certain ingredients, like it's go, you can, you can add a little bit of pepper for taste, but eventually, if you keep adding pepper, it's going to get hot. It's going to get spicy. It's going to, someone's not going to like it. So those ingredients.

And Brian, in all of the time that you talk to the Insurgent, you were planning with your family, and you guys were, you know, I'm assuming you guys, we're playing quarter bounce and just chugging the alcohol. Anyway, I'm, I'm thinking that no time did the word Honduran or Mexican or AR-15 come on, and I want to make a point of that because it's as simple as church fight versus the bar fight, Brian. The idea is that we conflate issues by bringing in things that are important to us. "Brick, are you talking about the vase? I love lamp," right? Or whatever that guy's name. The idea here is that this is a fractured human that lashed out and then ran for it because he knew he had done wrong and he hid. And, and you know, people are going to go, "Oh, this is just typical of that race, color, creed, religion, whatever." Yeah, shut up. No, that's the "STFU" moment. We're all humans here. Once you fall into that trap, you know, you, you, you can't get out.

Well, and it, it literally is falling into a trap because yes, you can't get out. You no longer look at any other evidence. You no longer do that, and you put everything, "I'm just going to put it in this box now I can understand it," and prefer that box on the shelf, and I'm not going to open it. It's like, "Wait a minute." Like, you once you, "Well, that's how they act," or "That's what'll happen," or "What do you think's going to happen?" It's like, "No, no, no."

What do we do when we fight? The barriers come down. And now it's a "fat ass," "Hey, this black guy was up here." Do you know what I'm saying? And people go, "Oh my God, well, that's you know, the hidden racist." No, it's humans. This is how humans have acted for 170,000 years. Fix it with your goddamn shitty rag article in the Houston Chronicle. It's the, it's the, it's the comment, "Hey, buddy." So, "Hey, buddy" is used to talk to a dog. "Hey, buddy" you talk to a little kid, "Hey, little buddy," and start a fight. "Hey, buddy," you got it. I told you, I'm getting up out of my seat, and the guy just body-checks me on an airplane, and I said, "Hey, sorry about that, partner, I'm just trying to get my bag." And he looks me in the face and leans forward and says, "I'm not your partner." And it was on. It was like, "Wow, he's here now." He's your partner's here. You get what I'm trying to say? Oh, I had such fun with him all the way down through the ramping going down to bed and claiming everything else because, you know, me, somebody wants to play, I hate boys, I don't know. And then now, now I had to make it a point, and I really did. Yeah, no, I feel bad now. But right then, right. I think that this behavior is appropriate for this area. Not only isn't it, I'm going to remind you why, and I'm going to show you what real behavior acts like. And Brian, that protracted situation now, it was in my seat, and I was holding a weapon. Come on, you add certain ingredients and something's going to happen.

"Hey, you pour alcohol in and put the pan back on the," I'm still talking food, "and put the pan back on the oven, opa! You got the saganaki," right? Yeah, sometimes it's a good effect, but sometimes these catalysts, these, these things that come together aren't. And, and so that, that's the idea behind talking about this is why don't we break it down into these different types of elements? And if I, it's, if I see the elements, right, it's easier for me to see when they come together. What I'm getting at is I don't, I'm not going to know what, what I'm going to see, but if all I have to look for, it's like the, the IED, the improvised explosive device, the bomb-making recognition stuff, there's a million different ways to make them so I can't sit here and look at different photos of them, they go out and expect to find them. But if you take apart all of the elements and show me, "Okay, okay, this is a blasting cap, this is dead cord, that's kind of how we build stuff, but you can make stuff on your own. Here's what homemade explosive looks like, here's examples of a timer that is, here's examples of like how I can rip this lamp cord and use it." And so when I see all of these elements laid out in front of me, I go, "Oh, okay, I get it." So I don't need to look for the whole thing put together. I got to look for these individual things.

Exactly.

I may see them. Obviously, I'm going to see that wiring in my car. Okay, but, but in that situation, it's fine, but, but when it's not in that situation, it's something. So let's go there for the parents that are listening just for a moment, Brian. I go into my kids' bedroom because I'm just, it's laundry day and I'm cleaning up. I'm not snooping, and you have the absolute right to snoop because you're the parent. Oh, yeah. But all of a sudden, you know, you look behind something and you find a piece of tinfoil. You know, the, the, that, and you're thinking, "Okay, what's that used for?" Well, that's used to wrap a sandwich. So it's not near the lunchbox, it's not near the garbage, and clearly the person keeps using it. So what is it used for? Well, it's used for smoking fentanyl or smoking crack or something else. Well, if a parent, I can't put those two things together. So it's more important saying, "Hey, your kid's got chore boy under the sink in their bathroom." And you look at it and you go, "Well, that's because they cleaned." That is, professional chefs are the ones that use chore boy, and you know who else does? People are smoking rock or, or a kit for heroin. Why is that important? Because that's the logic I used when we built Combat Hunter to find a bomb, Brian, because there were thousands of artillery shells and UXO (unexploded ordnance) and all that other stuff. So the idea is, and not to teach you how to find a specific bomb, but what are the types of things that bomb makers have around? What are the types of things that have to come together to make a silencer or, or to make a bootleg liquor, Brian? And I'm smarter because now what, what happens is my, my advanced acumen, my advanced critical thinking allows me to look at a situation and go, "Wait a minute, this is incongruent. Every pot in the house is clean, but this pot has white residue in it. And every pot is in the shelf, but this one's under the sink, hidden at the back." You see what I'm trying to say, Brian? Those situations that scream to us for snipers and bombs and insider threat should be just as simple for the people listening to us that are driving today and pulling in a parking lot and going, "This doesn't fit." That's what we're saying.

And I think that's the power of a podcast, right? That we can train somebody how to do something from the comfort of their home. Yeah, yeah. And, and the yellow pad, everything. Write down, "What is it? Everything. How did it make you feel? Why was that? How did this change over time?" You can, you can just yellow pad and write it out. I mean, how many times have I told you, I had, I had another friend call and ask about this, and I said, "All right, get the yellow pad out." And then they just like, they're like, "Oh," they didn't, they didn't have to ask me anymore once they started writing everything down because it became so obvious, right? It was so.

It's the most frequent thing that we carry in our gosh darn luggage, Brian.

Yeah, well, that massive yellow. And I've done that one too where I said, "All right, draw a line down the middle of the yellow pad. Right, right side, what did the person say? And then write on this side, what did they do?" And then they see this discrepancy. You go like, "Oh, wait, they keep telling me they're going to do this, but they only do this. Keep saying this, but okay, that's going to continue unless something, that's a point. That force, that force will continue as it is right now." So there's, there's a, hopefully when we discuss this stuff, people are seeing their way through these situations for what they are because I think it makes it more, well, it makes it easier to understand, and it makes it easier to then, well, we can prevent, we can change things because if we just start grandstanding politically about some crap that's not going to help anything then.

Well, it makes you feel better maybe. Maybe you feel. So, so every time that we say St. Elmo's Fire is caused by the devil being mad at us and thunder is just the, the way of warning us that we're not in God's good grace, we muddy the water. Yeah, what we got to do is we got to take it back and say this is an electrostatic charge that's formed. But Brian, that's what we're trying to do. Trying to take math and science and simplify it and street it so everybody can use it and go, "That makes a lot of sense." When you're driving and you hear a thump, thump, thump, thump, or something's wrong with the car, pull the hell over, don't increase speed. Right?

Yeah. "Maybe it'll stop." "Maybe if I go a little faster, a little faster."

Yeah, those are ludicrous. And, and so we're saying first of all, and finally, this is not going to stop. It's not going to stop. A pendulum does swing. Society gets nicer, it gets easier, but there's a whole bunch of factors that have to come together for that to occur, and right now, we're not there. Are we getting there yet? Because that's what they want you to believe.

Well, that's what some people I think want. Well, they think they want that, but they think they want it until it happens.

Yeah. And I would say let's walk back from the edge for a second and take a look and say almost everything that Brian and I talk about can be predicted. Almost everything. And I'll tell you what, flatulence can be predicted, being a fat ass can be predicted, dying of cancer from smoking too much. Right? So, so all we're saying is that when we talk about human behavior pattern recognition, we're now in the podcast going to the analysis and saying the analysis is up to you. We're handing you the tools, but you have to do your own analysis because Brian and I don't drive with you in a car.

Yeah, yeah. Unless you're paying us to. So we would, I just get in the back seat. You know why I do that, right? I was getting in the back seat because it's a small seat to make everybody else feel like an ass that takes shotgun, and I love that when we get that shitty round, you go, "No, no, I'm fine." And then like the seat is up in your face and you're like, you're pinned against it. I'm like, "Why are you doing this to yourself?"

You know I do that. You were the first one at the car.

You could exactly. But I love to make those other people think and go, "Oh my God, I feel like an ass now." "Alright, well the front passenger has to move the seat all the way forward, they're pressed against the windshield." Like, "Is that better?" Like, "Oh, no, no, you don't have to do that." "No, no, no, it's fine." "Come on back." You know, and I've got the headrest all up in like, you're breathing on their heads because it's so close. But we do that. How many times did you see you do that? I love it. I love stirring the pot.

Right. Yeah, it's always fun.

So, alright. Well, I, I hopefully people have, have some takeaways. Always, you can always reach out to us with any questions at [contact email or website]. We've got a lot more on the Patreon side. Like I said, we covered that other case. There's certain ones we do just on that side and, and have discussions we have because that we cannot have on here. One just to put behind it's, it's a very small paywall, it's only a few dollars a month, but the, the, but it, it keeps the riffraff out. You know, I say it keeps, keeps the people out who are clowns and and just want to, you know, just take crap out of context and take what people say and make their own way out of it. So, so we talk about certain things on there, and then we answer any of the questions that a lot of our listeners have or the Patreon members have. So you can check that out. And, you know, have for a month and see what you think. And then it really helps us out. So, anything else to add? I think that's, yeah.

We travel, so if you want to come talk to your church group or your college class or whatever, we love doing that stuff. Also, send us topics if you want to talk about.

Yeah, that's a good point. If you know somebody that would be a great guest on the show, it's not, yeah. What do you think it would be? Call Brian because Brian likes auditioning folks. And folks, we've got, I'll tell you what, Brian, my, my favorite episode of like, Todd Fox. Everybody, if you haven't had a chance to read that one. We've had something good.

Todd was awesome.

And then Liam de Bello. Oh my God, she's so brilliant. She's just such a brilliant.

Nothing against any of our other guests. No, just that all of a sudden you just have to fall in love with the one that you're talking to then because you're right up in your face.

You know, yeah, yeah. And Todd's awesome too because he's such a lot of fun. He has more experience than anyone I've met, and you would never know that because he's just such a nice, down-to-earth. I'm assuming, yeah, he's a great guy. So, thanks, thanks everyone obviously for, for tuning in, supporting the show. Reach out with any questions. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with your friends, right? It helps us get the word out there and, and, you know, more people that listen in. So thank you so much for listening, we appreciate it. And don't forget. Oh, that's Java in the background. Java changes behavior training. Yeah, she looked. Training, it's great. Alright, thank you. You're talking about breakfast. Yeah, don't forget training changes behavior.