L.O.G. 231 Executive Protection with Ivan Ivanovich

All right, we'll go ahead and get started here. So Ivan Ivanovich, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We're excited to have you on. We met you a couple years ago, and we've been wanting to get you on for a while, and so we're happy that you were finally able to get on here and record an episode with us. So, thanks for joining us.

Thank you very much. It's truly an honor for me, and thank you, thank you so much to have me here.

Yeah, well, it's an honor for us to have you too because you've got a really interesting life and career. And you're really big in the executive protection (EP) world, based a lot out of Mexico, where their executive protection industry is massive in terms of just private security in general and what you guys have to operate under some difficult circumstances sometimes. So, that's part of why I wanted to have you on, because that industry in the United States is growing as well, a lot more people getting personal security, a lot more people just general, so not just at the executive level. So I wanted to bring you on, but if you wouldn't mind, kind of for our listeners, give a little background about yourself, where you're from, and then kind of where you're at here, because you've got some great views of the executive protection industry, which we want to have you on for, but kind of want to give a little bit of your backstory, because that's interesting as well.

Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Brian, Greg. Thank you, thank you. It's truly an honor for me once more. And yes, well, I used to be Yugoslavian. And that country is not anymore. I used to do many things, you know, but then the names of the country were changing, right? Due to a very unfortunate and really very violent civil war that we had back in the 90s, and the country split into many segments and many parts. So after that, I became Serbian. That's kind of part of the 'used to be kind of bad guys,' but it took a lot of turns. And I started to form myself and get my first experiences in security and executive protection back in the 90s during the Yugoslavian Civil War. And that was a lot of things to learn there. It was a really challenging environment to do the security (and) executive protection. I had that kind of luck, so to say, that I was developing myself as a professional in a pretty violent environment. First, it was ex-Yugoslavia. And when that was over in 1999, by the play of destiny, I came to Mexico originally as a tourist. And here I am 25 years later. It was a big change in both cultures, way of living, language, and whatever.

And then I realized that at that moment, like 25 years ago, the executive protection industry was just starting to be more professional in its development, because back in the 90s, there was a lot of kidnapping. The kidnap industry in Mexico was huge. So then the need for executive protection was enormous. So that was the moment when I came there with different experiences and a different focus that we had in Yugoslavia back in the days. So we started to develop that fusion of concepts and ways of thinking and threats and that kind of thing, you know.

Because basically, the training that we were receiving in Yugoslavia—that part of the private sector was just beginning, because it was, you know, a socialist, communist country. There was nothing private there yet. Back in the 90s, it was just starting. Most of the training we received was from the SDB personnel. That was SDB, that's parallel to the KGB (what the KGB was in Russia). And that focus is very much on intelligence and counter-surveillance and that kind of stuff. So that's how I started in Mexico, first with training, and then in 2004, I opened the executive protection company. And that's how we started.

Yeah, we're honored too, because there are a lot of times that we have world-class guests, but you're a true world-class guest. You've been a keynote, you've been a lead instructor, you've been all over the world. There isn't a place in Latin America that you haven't (been). Folks, if you're not on LinkedIn and you're not following Ivan, you've got a problem because you've got to get there and see all the incredible places that he speaks and how much influence you have on law enforcement and first responders.

Ivan, one thing – and you've been in the United States so often, and you know the culture of the United States – if we were talking about the Mafia, La Cosa Nostra, or Jamaican Posse, those personnel that provide security for an executive-level person in those criminal organizations know getting shot, they know getting murdered, kidnapped, death. But most people in the United States that hire executive protection have no idea what's going on. They get a guy with big biceps, they get a guy with a big gun, they all wear dark glasses and drive around in a car. I remember Brian and I hitting the ground in Mexico City, where it's for real, and if you go down the wrong street or turn the wrong way... The idea is that we as Americans have this inflated ego, and part of going with that is this new executive protection industry in the United States that caters to that myth.

Now, my brother Jeff, with WSEPS (Western Slope Executive Protection Services), he's been in the protection industry in the United States for almost 35 years now, and it's none of that. No dark glasses, no. He arranges flights and he arranges hotels, and he does advance work and surveillance. So, tell us, how do we get it wrong? How is it that Americans are consistently getting executive protection wrong?

Well, I don't think it's getting it wrong. I think maybe the same thing that happened in Mexico maybe 20 years ago can eventually start to happen in the United States, because the international crime organizations are getting stronger and stronger each day. And what's the problem in Mexico? How we can define Mexico and the rest of Latin American countries that have similar problems – nevertheless, the Mexican problem is far bigger. But we also, when we started the (executive protection industry) – and when I say 'we' like the executive protection industry in Mexico – generally we were thinking that that's the executive protection, you know: a lot of guns, big guys, bodyguards, dark sunglasses.

And there are places in the world, you know, there are countries in the world when you can spend all your life working that way, and everybody's going to fear you, nobody messes with you, and there is no real threat. So there is no way you see that you are pretty much wrong. And Mexico, and Latin America – basically Mexico – I can define it as a big executive protection lab. And in that lab, the only problem is that, you know, in a laboratory the experiments are controlled. Here, they are not controlled. Here it is for real. So we just put (it) on the test, because every day you have threats. It's for real. Every day you have carjacking, every day you have kidnapping, every day you can have an assault on the street, street robberies, assassinations. Exactly.

And that's the point. So because we believe, we have that bias, and that bias is created by the movies, and because it's very sexy, you know? You see guys shooting and driving cars and kicking and that kind of thing. It's so cool to be an executive protection agent, you know, you do all that great stuff. But when you put it on the test, then we have a problem. And then we realize that these things that they were teaching us for so many years just don't work. And the result of it is that right now, in a little bit more than a year in Mexico, we have 12 protectees killed and 28 of their protectors. So it's 40 deaths just in Mexico, just in 14 months, just a little bit more than one year. Why? Because it's an ambush-waiting strategy, a reactive strategy.

I remember Brian, you were talking on the EP Summit like two years ago, and I quote you, and I quote you frequently, on other conferences that we give in different countries. You say, "Why are the American Marines so effective? Because each time there is an incident, each time we have one Marine killed, then there is a huge analysis. We see what went wrong, and then we incorporate that into our structure, in our teaching, and we avoid that that can never happen again." So, and I say, "Why are we not doing this in executive protection?" That's the big problem, because in Mexico we are not doing it. We have just in one year, like 40 people dead. I think it's the deadliest profession right now, probably in Mexico, and maybe in many other different security branches. When we have this for real, and we are doing nothing, nothing. We are doing nothing to change it.

And, you know, I think part of that is – I appreciate that you kind of took a lot away from that – because that's what the whole after-action of what happened (is). You can make immediate changes, and then you look at it over the organization as a whole. It's like, "Wait, is this something we just need to do right now? What was the mistake? Where did it happen? How could we?" Because the whole thing is, how could we have prevented this person from being killed?

And I think a lot of the analysis goes wrong because it's, you know, like you said, "Okay, there's an ambush attack," and then they go, "Oh, well, we need more armor on our vehicles, we need more people with guns, we need, well, if he would have done this tactic, let's get some more range time to go shooting because then we would have got better." And what I like about your approach is, "Well, hang on, hang on a second here, wind that tape back, because you could have mitigated this event, you could have avoided this event." And that's about being proactive.

So where folks go wrong is they say, "Okay, we want to be proactive," but their analysis of all these events, or all that "at bang," and then everything that occurs after… And what I love about what you talk about and with your new vision, and you brought up a great analogy in your book even about this kind of the soccer field (or football field for the rest of the world, soccer here in the US). But, you know, it was always, "Hey, we've got to focus on that. The team is here, you're just playing defense, and you're focusing on protecting the protectee. You've got to keep the ball out of the goal. So let's get a really good goalie, let's get some defenders out there." It's like, "Well, you're already waiting till that ball is downfield, and it's right, it's getting thrown at you, it's getting shot at you, it's getting kicked right towards you." So why are we doing it that way? So I love that you have that approach. So how is it that you can be proactive and not be that reactive? What is it that you see in the executive protection industry that needs to change, or that probably is changing in some areas? I know you're one of those folks looking at it, but what is it to you, and how do you actually do it?

Well, first, I like always to say that I call it a "new vision," but it's actually not new. I mean, all the measures, all the strategies were already there, you know? It's not that I invented it; it's not that I have some vision or whatever. It was already there. The problem, the big problem, is it's not in use in executive protection. And I'm going to give you several examples. When I was writing my articles and teachings, somebody commented when I was talking, for example, about counter-surveillance, that was like, "Okay, but we know about counter-surveillance for decades, you know?" Yeah, of course. I never said that I invented counter-surveillance. You know what I can prove? What I can prove is that you're not using it. That's what I can prove. How can I prove it? Because we have a lot of high-profile attacks and assassinations in, for example, five, six years, and together with all of this that I just mentioned, but it's more. For example, we have the attack on Norberto Rivera on his house. He's one of the Mexican Catholic Church leaders. Omar García Harfuch, chief of police. Ciro Gómez Leyva, a famous journalist, he survived. And many of them, the analysis after the attack, it's published in media, wherever, they told that they found out that those guys were followed for months. Well, it was far more easier that if you could have the counter-surveillance there, you would have been spotted very easy. But you didn't. That's a proof that we are not using counter-surveillance in executive protection. And that's the most effective way to stop the attack before it happens.

And that's great what you mentioned, right? Because you just said it. Yes, because it's an ambush. We analyze and see, "Okay, no, we need more guns and we need more people." But it just doesn't work. I mean, it's a kind of bias that there is no proof it's going to work. For example, last week, we had a tragic situation, one of the biggest attacks with the most casualties on two police dignitaries in Mexico in the state of Guerrero. And they had 10 protective agents. But they were moving like the military with their armored jackets, long guns, whatever. And they were all killed. They were all killed, you know? Because you cannot wait for the ambush. You cannot expect that you're going to be stronger, you know, you just can't do it. And sometimes, you know, you think if you have big numbers, that big number is going to protect you. No, it's not going to protect you. And it's very difficult to break that bias in executive protection, because if you don't see something, that means that what you don't see doesn't exist. And it's difficult to understand.

And we have a similar concept. I call it sometimes the "shadow agents." You called it the "guardian angel," and the one that you cannot see that can tell you that they identified (the threat). We have that very, very similar philosophy because that's the philosophy that actually works. And I was talking with one of my countrywomen – she's also Serbian, and you met her during the event – the famous Pink Panther gang. And she was one of the most important leaders of that famous, so to say, famous gang of Pink Panther that had a great number of robberies and kidnapping even from London to Japan, passing through Dubai, in whole Europe. And there is half a billion, I mean, half a billion Euros in earnings for them.

And we asked her, "Look, you have hundreds of attacks you did all around the world, and frequently you have armed people there. How many times did they drop their weapons to fight against you? And how many times do you defend? Are you afraid of them?" And she's like, "Of course not. Because we already analyzed this, we already see. When we go in, we have everything we need to be successful because we already analyzed them for a long time. So they can't do anything." Because, "I'm not afraid." That's the moment she said, "When we are not afraid, we just have high adrenaline, but we are not afraid. Why? Because we have our mask, we are getting in with the stolen cars, we break everything, we enter in the moment that we know that their attention is low. And even if we have some police cars maybe closing by, we know that they will not engage unless they already have backup, because it's a procedure frequently in some places. So we are not afraid in that moment, and they never ever do anything."

"But what is the moment when I am scared?" She said, "What's the most critical moment for me? The most critical moment is when I am observing the victim, and that's a long process. And I had to analyze the victim." And she said that that's the moment "I'm scared." Why? "Because I need to have a clear car. I cannot have any hat, I can't have my face covered, because I cannot draw attention to me, that I'm somebody, that something suspicious is going on. And if somebody identifies me, I know that nothing's going to happen in the moment of attack, but they can eventually find me later." That's how she got to prison, actually.

Yeah, and because they have, you know, what you just kind of encapsulated all that whole story from her perspective as well, that was the Pink Panther gang, I think they call themselves. But, you know, people can find out about that. But it is, at the moment of attack, like they have all of the advantage, right? Like you just said, they did all the planning, they did all the preparation. You're the one caught off guard at that point. So, you know, they really have the entire advantage, it's all theirs. But all the events leading up to that, all of their rehearsals that they have to do, their surveillance they have to do, their planning—that's when the playing field changes.

Right now, me as a, let's say, as a protection agent, that's actually when I have the advantage because you have to come find me, you have to come look at me, you have to come watch me. And so if I'm not putting that perspective into my mind beforehand, then I'm going to miss that stuff. And she even said it right there, it's like, "Well, that's when we (are) most critical because I have to now blend in." Now you as a Protection Officer, you're the one that has the advantage in that situation, everything before. So it's, I mean, and like you said, it's the biases, and through experiences people are reacting and they do this. But if you just change that around a little bit, (it's) "When can I have the advantage?" You know, and to capitalize on that is, I think, what you're talking about here.

Yeah, absolutely, that's the point. And she told this very clearly. She said, "Each time I was observing the victim and someone approaches me and asks what I'm doing there, and I realize that he identified me and he took the car plates or whatever, in that moment I abandon that victim. I'm not going forward." So that's huge.

Very so, two points here, Ivan. One of your favorite quotes that I pass around when we're training is that you said, "Close-in protection almost never works." And that really crushes a lot of people because that's "on the X," that's being in the moment, that's "at bang," and "at bang" thinking doesn't work. And we share the mentality, you and Brian and I, that very old ideas are very good ideas. We didn't invent that either, it's just been around forever and people know that.

And I can tell you, in 11 years of undercover narcotic work, one of the things that was a constant is I would go in to testify against the people that we had been following for nine months, 18 months, a year and a half. And I would be sitting across the table from them and they'd go, "Hey, how are you? Hey, good to see you. What's going on?" They'd have no idea I was the cop. And then I'd get up and they'd say, "Sergeant Williams," and I'd walk over and they'd say, "Holy crap!" And I'd show them pictures: "Here, we're eating. This is where this is the hotel he goes to. Here's his car, here's his backup car, here's his girlfriend."

And so, surveillance and counter-surveillance information is the key. The person that owns the fastest stream of credible information is ahead of the OODA Loop. And we hear all the time that (reference to) John Boyd's OODA Loop. And we're not big fans unless you're a fighter pilot, but one of the good things about this type of thinking, and specifically the type of thinking in your book, is that you can out-think a cunning opponent. A pair of binoculars is much better in many instances than an armored vehicle. Being able to think critically in the moment is just as important as having a bulletproof vest. And we don't get that. Comms, communications, doing a map recon, doing a route recon, doing rehearsal—to us, those are things that just roll off our tongue all the time. And then all of a sudden on social media, what do we see? We see the big person lifting the tires and flipping the tires and shooting automatic weapons. You know what? That's your last resort all the time. So your quote about "close-in protection almost never working," to me, that's masterful. That really means that you've got it going on. That should be on a business card somewhere.

Thank you so much. You know, a lot of people, I know that sometimes it's very difficult to come up with such a concept in places that are very used to this, and they still don't have any proof that this thing doesn't work because nothing happens, you know? My book was very well received. I didn't expect it's going to be so good received in all the Latin American countries, you know, because its first edition is Spanish. Everybody had that same experience and thinking that way, but they didn't dare to say something. So, but it's important. I frequently say that close protection is an insane concept if we are just focused on close protection. Why? Because you don't want to protect somebody close range, for God's sake, you know? Because we already have the problem with you. We don't want to have it. It's a gamble.

And it's interesting because I made a little research, and I analyzed 134 attacks on prominent figures in 60 countries in the last 123 years. And I found that reaction with the gun was successful in 3.8% of the cases, including those countries that we have coups and that kind of thing, that it's not applying so much, but let's say, let's make it 3.8%. So, I'm not against—somebody was telling, "Oh, you're against weapons in executive protection." I never said that, you know? The only thing I'm saying, I try to be very clear with that, is that we cannot base such an important profession like executive protection just on one tool that has such a small level of effectiveness. I mean, you cannot focus entirely on something that's 3.8% effective.

So the problem is not close protection. The problem is when you go to Wikipedia, you put "executive protection," you're going to find "executive protection or close protection is..." And then you go... I mean, executive protection is far more than close protection. It is fine that close protection is a part of executive protection, but you cannot focus on close protection, just everything that it is, because there is no evidence that that works, and there is all evidence it is not working if you just focus on that, you know? That's the problem.

Brian and I spent a night with Gonzalo (Sánchez de) Azcona and Pablo Ortiz Monasterio, and you kept jumping in and out when you could after we were doing our range walk in the store. And Gonzalo has thousands of tapes, and he would show the surveillance tapes all the time. And one of the most common themes on the surveillance tapes that he was showing us is when the armored vehicle would park, all of a sudden the door would come open. All of the attacks were timed exactly when that door would come open, so the people would come out and come in.

And we asked, because we weren't in Mexico City protection or Mexico protection, we asked, "Well, how much of your training do you do with that?" And it was like, "Do with what?" "Well, getting in and out of the vehicle." "Well, no, no, we don't do that." And I remember Brian and I were in Colombia. Remember I tried to grab the door on the back of an armored vehicle (and) it was so hard to open, and it took so long to get into the vehicle that I told Brian, "Hey, we've got to rehearse this more." So what we don't see is we don't see people doing what you're doing. You're clinically looking at training and saying, "This is where training needs to be, and this is where training fails."

That's a hard thing because what you're doing is you're exposing weaknesses. So I would assume, Ivan, that you're getting bad feedback sometimes, where people say, "You just don't understand how hard it is," or "We need more money." What kind of feedback do you get?

Well, that's interesting because I'm not just teaching executive protection; I'm working executive protection. And that's important because many instructors who are teaching executive protection—as I told you when we were at the beginning of our chat, I consider myself a "professional idiot" because I know just one thing, executive protection, but I know almost all of its aspects. Because yes, I do training (in) executive protection, but I work as executive protection. I do details. I do executive protection on the ground, overseas, or whatever. So it's not that easy to debate something that you know very well in terms that, let's say, "Okay, but it's difficult." Okay, it's also difficult for me, and I can do it.

And, for example, "Okay, because we cannot work with the protectee, and the protectee doesn't understand, and he's stubborn." Okay, yes, it's also for me, "stubborn." But what was the problem? Because you are mainly focused, or you're training, on shooting, and you're not focused on communication, you're not focused on diplomacy, you're not focused on the different techniques you have to convince the person you're working with. That's important. And first, you need to know, you need to know very well what you are doing in order to sit with the protectee and convince him against something that he's very, very (set on). And I'm going to give you an example.

I was talking with a protectee, and I asked him, "Okay, re-analyze the area," because it was before we started to work with him. "We analyze this area when you are going each Sunday to church at the same time with all your family, walking like 300 meters or 400, whatever. And in this area, it's an exclusive area of Mexico City, Polanco, but the rate of assault for street crime, to take your watch, whatever, is the highest one. So why are you doing this? Why are you exposing yourself?" And he answered, "Look, I have an armed agent with me." "So what?" And I said, "Okay, let's imagine that's the guy's drug and he didn't see and he didn't realize that you have a – he didn't just care that you have an armed agent. And he's coming on you with a gun. What would you like your agent to do? To draw his gun and start shooting with your kids in front, or you just give him the watch?" "Then why do you need a guy?" What do you think? And they're not stupid, you know? And most of the time, you know, the really (smart ones), and he said, "Okay, so what do you recommend? To put you in a hard car in your house and take you to the church?" "What about that?" (He) said, "Yes."

And then what happened two months later? We had that big situation in which we had a protectee, an important name, Adolfo Lagos, who was driving an expensive bike in the area of high risk with two armed guys in the vehicle behind him. And suddenly a guy approached with a gun to take out his bike, to rob his bike. Then what happened? The two guys who were in the vehicle behind said, "Well, now is the moment! Now everything we saw on the movies and theaters and whatever, are all training. Now is the moment!" They drew their weapons, and especially the guy who was also driving and shooting – that's also a crazy thing – and they killed their protectee! Yeah, you can Google it. And they killed their protectee. So that happened two months after that. And my client called me and said, "Ivan, you were right." That's because it was big news. So that's something that happens frequently in Mexico. You have carjacking all the time.

And you have that kind of attack. For example, this year in Tulum, in the Cancun area, the guy went with his agent to Starbucks with his Rolex and said, "Okay, I have an arm. What can go wrong?" And they came for his Rolex, to steal his Rolex. And his protectee and his agent drew the weapon and started shooting, and also killed the protectee. Oh my goodness! So because people think, "Okay, I have a gun and everything is okay." Because I have in many places, I would spend all my work life, 30 years or whatever, without needing to draw the gun. So here, if you have a gun, you eventually need to use it. And when you're going to use it, what's going to happen? Nobody thinks about it. Who am I going to kill? Because I'm going to draw the weapon to kill somebody. Who am I going to kill? When? How? I mean, that's something we are not thinking about. And we have casualties. Sorry for speaking so much.

No, no, no, no, this is perfect. So, I'm born and raised in Detroit, Brian's born and raised in Chicago. These are gun cultures. So when I became a cop in the Detroit metropolitan area, everybody that was shooting at me, everybody that was doing the robbing, everybody that was carrying a gun on a bad guy side, they never went to a range. All of their experience was shooting at people, you know? So I'm not against training, I'm not against weapons training. What I'm saying is we used to call that "bad guy luck." Bad guy draws from his pocket with the crappiest gun you've ever seen, with four different types of ammo, and shoots from his waist and hits the police officer in the head, and the police officer misses three rounds. It's, life is different. So if you're going to be on the look, a lot of people spend a lot of money on boxing matches, and sometimes there's an upset and they lose all that money. Why? Because it's different in the ring. It's different when you're standing on the "X." So going a block out, and then going a mile out, and going a month out, instead of going a minute out—these are things you've heard us talk about all the time.

As a matter of fact, everything that we tried to put out to all of the dignitaries and the protectees and the owners of businesses in Mexico City was time, the gift of time and distance. The further you are away, the better you plan. And I think that your new vision, your book, does a really great job of encapsulating that. You don't try to insult anybody, you don't try to say, "Hey, mine is the best way." You say, "Take a good long look inside before you take a look outside." And then, "Well, before you press the gas pedal or you go buy a gun, make sure that your information infrastructure is in place." And we love that. That's exactly how Brian and I would (do it).

And it's very interesting, for example, that we don't generally have any data of executive protection, or really not enough. So, for example, it's very common that US companies ask you for a service and say, "Okay, I want a guy in the vehicle, just a gun in the vehicle." And they frequently even ask that the driver is armed. That we don't do that, you know? We prefer not to give a service than to have an armed driver. He has his vehicle, his weapon, but if you want to put the armed personnel, the armed agent, into the unarmed soft vehicle, what's going to happen in the real situation? Real situation, you have a lot of carjackings here in Mexico and Latin America. So the same situation: you have a carjack, and then what are you going to do? You're going to draw your weapon? You're going to start shooting?

And we have, just in two years, it's a fact – in just two years, we have in this kind of situation when you have an armed agent in a soft vehicle in Mexico, you have two protectees dead, one agent dead, and four of them injured in this kind of situation. That's why they're asking us, "Okay, you're going to have an armed (agent)?" "Okay, if you want to have the armed agent, then we need to have an armored vehicle." Because the opportunity, the risk, is very high that we can have a carjacking. And I hear the commands on other places, "Okay, but this is the situation when you have an armed agent in a soft vehicle that has been there forever and it works." Works how? Works when nothing happens? Okay, but when something happens, then you have a problem. So that's something that we try to point out. And what, again, going back with what Brian said, "We have a lot, a lot of dead people in executive protection in Latin America, in Mexico, and we are not taking any lessons out of it." So that's why this podcast, that's here, you guys and our professionals that can help us spread this information, this word, and these experiences, you know? So we know, so we can avoid that (these deaths happen) in Mexico, but also in United States or other places, that we don't have these casualties, that we can save lives of both protectees and protectors. That's the main point, that's the main message.

Exactly, what a great message. And I think you're, I love that you go back and you kind of look at not just your own experiences, but overall, you look at the industries and look at these different types of attacks and you try to pull some relevant data out of it, because that's what you should be making your decisions on: "Okay, what really happened?" And I know you brought up, I think it was like whatever, 3.something percent of the time, someone actually successfully engaged, or executive protection successfully engaged with their weapons. I think it's way less than that in the United States. I mean, I think even in terms of someone in executive protection or a bodyguard in the United States getting into some type of shooting altercation, I think it's even that happening is almost – it's only happened a couple times in the United States out of the history of it. So, you know, if we're looking at that because everyone thinks, "Okay, well, us though, it's a gun culture here, everyone's got guns, it's easy to get guns." It's like, "Okay, yes, that's a potential threat, but if you're waiting to that moment, then you're kind of too late."

I mean, you know, you look at even like the Secret Service, protecting the President. You know, their thing is, "Wait, if I have to jump in front of a bullet to protect the President, we've already failed on so many levels if it's gotten to that point." Now, no one has the resources that the US Secret Service does; that's a whole different ball game, right, what they have to do in the planning considerations. But, you know, we, you only have so much. And so a lot of folks – and this is what I see, maybe you see it down there too – is a lot of folks, especially if they're like prior military, prior law enforcement, and then they go into this industry, they sort of fall back on what they know. And that always involved weapons and tactics and shooting and this, and they weren't really focusing on everything before that and all the planning.

Now, any good EP agent will tell you, "Look, it's all about proper planning and coordination and working well with others." That's what the good ones will tell you. But there's still sort of this fall back on, "Well, I've got to be right in there with the protectee and it's all going to happen right here," when you can kind of control, I think, a lot more than you think you can in some areas. But once you wait to that last second, it's like Greg was saying, it's like it's rolling the dice. I mean, what can happen? So it's like all of that effort has to go into that planning up front. And so I'm curious as to what you've seen as maybe not a full model, but successful things that you know, or those sort of gems, those small takeaways from your extensive career in this, where you go, "You know, throughout my career I've always seen these few things come up as problems, so if you address those..." I mean, do you have any common things that you see that are always going to be a headache for anyone in that industry?

Well, first, that's the thing I already started to talk about, and that's the contact with the protectee and working with the protectee. Because that generally (is) the main point. Everybody has (it); all the agents have their complaints: "Yes, but I want to do this and this and that." And then we hit with the protectee who doesn't understand, and that's the big problem, because we are first focused on the reaction weapon and not on communication. So that's the first thing.

The second thing that's also the problem is because people want to see executive protection. And effective executive protection is not to be seen. So that's kind of a weird thing that we have to work with. And that's another thing that you pointed out also. For example, when we have a situation in which we had these "dry runs," that's very common here in Mexico, and we don't have the ability to identify it because they frequently do this, especially for kidnapping. Because kidnapping is more complicated; the logistic is more complicated because you need a guy alive. Yes, so that's why they do a lot of dry runs, a lot of tests. And identifying that is essential.

We had a situation in which we received a call from a person. He said, "Okay, they just recommended me to call you as experts because today they tried to rob my daughter, but they couldn't." "Oh, come on, what's your daughter? She's Makita?" You know, "How did she make it?" And he said, "Okay," and he started like, "Every Tuesday at 2 PM..." And we're like, "Okay, something is wrong here, you know?" Just, "Okay, because everything that happens around something, you have some routine." And she said, "Okay, because then my daughter comes to have lunch with us, and the waiter opens the door, and she gets in, talks. And then at that moment, the black Suburban just gets next to her with a strong brake sound, but nobody gets out of the vehicle." And we were like, "Okay, then what did she do?" "Oh, she went on the road next to the road, and she escaped there." Okay, so we realized in that moment that was a dry run, because they were just checking what she's going to do. And then when the moment comes, they're going to stop, they're going to block it, and they're going to take her.

So that's the moment we started the counter-surveillance. We identified all the vehicles that were around: a Nissan Platina with a police jacket around the car, around the seat. And nobody could identify that car. And we ran the plates, and it had two reports related to cases of kidnapping, right? And then we involved the authorities, and they got all the gang. And that gang, that organization, started with a handsome instructor of spinning in her gym. And he was profiling, and he approached them, he got the information. Then they started – that was the hostile intel – and then they started the counter-surveillance, and they did the dry run. And that was the moment we cut off that, without a bullet, without that kind of (incident). We have a lot of that kind of things. So that's the main point, because that's the executive protection that you don't need to see, and that works effectively.

And that's the main problem, because you want that thing that can be seen. And it's fine if you want to have it, that's okay, because there are two different things: executive protection (for) your tranquility, so to say, to be calm, you know, and that (to be) effective. And sometimes they're not the same things. You can feel secure and you're not actually. So if we can put both things in place, that's fine, but the big problem is that the main thing is active protection, that the effective (method) is what is not seen. And that's the problem, because the people want to see executive protection.

Yeah, and the people that also want to see executive protection are the people in the business selling executive protection because they think somehow that they've got to be a star, they've got to have "the look." And, you know what? Some of the best undercover agents I ever saw looked like your neighbor, and that's why they worked so well. I love our dear friend Todd Fox; he's in the same line of business, and I know that Todd Fox has fired protectees before and said, "No, I'm not going to work with you," because they won't listen. And I think that the upfront cost of information and intelligence, and route selection, and rehearsal is well worth absolutely any other accoutrement that they're going to buy, whether they're going to have first-class plane tickets or anything else.

I know my brother Jeff is always on the road with his crew because he's always scouting out locations well before anybody's going to go there, to see the pattern of life, to meet with the local law enforcement, to meet with local government protection, the hospital emergency rooms, and, you know, the Level One Trauma Centers and stuff. That's the unseen part of your business, and I guarantee it probably occupies over 90% of your time.

Yeah, absolutely. And Greg, you were talking about that concept, both of you guys, in a summit of a "guardian angel," and you were talking about the videos that Gonzalo showed you, in which the door opens and the car gets in and everybody is getting involved in the attack. And you can see when you have that on social media, the comments, and the people are commenting, and the comments are only related to what is happening in those seconds. Nobody goes to The Human Behavior Podcast. That's so true, you know, somebody should write that down. That's a great quote! Because those guys, they're not David Copperfield, you know? He can't just come out of nowhere. They need to be somewhere before. And that's the old case of all the protection: the anticipation before. So they need to wait somewhere.

So if you had a residential security, you don't need to have a massive executive protection with so many people around. You know, you have a residential security well-trained, you know that you're going to be there soon. And it is not, you know, guys, it is not easy to put together the ambush. No, of course not. It needs logistics, needs a lot of logistics, a lot of preparation. You cannot wait just in any place. The place can't...

Ivan, you can't afford to have your best players killed in a crappy ambush, because you've spent so much money and so much time on them, and you can't afford that trade-off. And that's what's happening in America when you see five police officers shot doing a search warrant, six police officers shot on this traffic stop. It's not a trade-off. We can't afford that. And in the industry, training changes that, and good people in this industry see that. And you're exactly right, the bad guys understand tactical patience. They wait and they wait until the time is right, but we don't sometimes.

No, we frequently don't. So they can be anywhere. There are specific places when those guys can wait, and you need to go to those places and see them before. And what's going to happen when they see them before? Are they going to draw their guns and shoot? No, they're just going to go, because that's mainly what they want – to surprise you. If they are surprised, they just go. That's the big (point). Because they want (to attack). Talking with the Pink Panther, she's like, "Okay, I have one shot." I mean, "Each time I'm playing my life that the police can make mistakes. And okay, if he's not killed or something, but generally nothing can happen. But if I made a mistake, I will be either killed or spend the rest of my days in jail, and I don't want to be in jail. So that's why I need to plan it perfect."

So that's one of the things that we don't see, and that early alert, holy Guardian Angel, it needs to be there before. And in the case of the attack on the Mexico City chief of police, can you imagine almost 20 bad guys in a big truck on a specific place next to the road where he's going to pass? They spent 10 hours there. 10 hours!

That attack happened hours before Brian and I drove down that road. There was still all the damage from the crime scene on our way to our hotel. And I'll tell you what, that's when you get slapped with reality and you start paying even more attention, right?

Attention, yeah. But nobody... I mean, after that, they analyzed the cameras and all that stuff, they said, "Okay, there are also 15, 20 guys with long guns, hidden of course, in the truck." And that truck, if you see that truck, that truck is not normal in this area. I mean, it doesn't exist. That truck is not using this. (It's) using (it) elsewhere, but here, no. So if you have the executive protection really trained to identify these things, to go a step forward... You cannot put an ambush anywhere. So also that ambush (is) made in specific places. And around that specific place, what's going on there? What's going on there before? So we need to go behind the scenes and stop them, not in the scene they prepare for us. That's the case.

Exactly, because Brian said it very well earlier, the balance of power changes, the momentum changes. And all you have to do is slow down or speed up or take a left or say, "Hey, we're going to go with our Route C instead of our Route A," and all of their plans are abandoned, you know? So yeah, I absolutely am a proponent of what you're laying down because you're thinking your way out of a situation, not just teaching ramming cars and shooting and breaching doors and, you know, wrist locks. And there is a place for all of that, but not (as the primary focus).

I applaud anybody that's a security guard at any location. As a matter of fact, Gonzalo and his "grippers"—he calls them his "grippers"—are all over, they're doing great stuff and they're risking their lives for people's businesses. But that's not executive protection. And just because you were in the military or you're a retired police officer doesn't mean you know anything about executive protection. So if you're going to get into this line of work, all that we say is train, learn, find out who the credible experts are, and go out there and get some training and experience, because the stuff you're getting online is not going to be training and experience.

Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting in our industry that I frequently hear the guys say, "Okay, we have two great agents; they are Special Forces." I say, "Nobody's perfect, don't worry, don't worry!" And I was like, "Oh, wow," because you automatically think that 'he's Special Forces, ergo, he is an expert in executive protection.' And you can see in, for example, a 'Bodyguard' series on Netflix: the guy is Special Forces, and suddenly he's an executive protection specialist. So, and that just reinforces that bias. A lot of us are law enforcement, a lot of us are Special (Forces) – it's fine. I mean, we are nobody's against that. The problem is when you just get the guy who was a police officer or whatever and put him automatically to work (in) executive protection. That's a big mistake because we need specialized training (in) executive protection. So that's one of the big problems in our industry.

And as I told you, if you work in the countries where nothing happens, it's very difficult to get rid of those myths because nothing happens. And "I'm working like 30 years with my dark sunglasses and nothing's going to happen. So who are you to tell me that I'm wrong?" Exactly, that's the big problem.

So Hollywood's not going to sell any movies where John Wick spends two hours doing surveillance and nobody pulls a gun and nobody gets shot; there's got to be some action. And the same thing, I always envision, you know, the big roulette wheel that spins around, and when you dial 911 (or 011 in Mexico), when you dial that, you get whoever the wheel stops on. You don't always get the best guy; you get the guy that's on duty. And in some locations, that means an untrained, or inexperienced, or overweight, or, you know, there's a problem. And so sometimes we're our own enemies in this industry. And so it's very important to dispel those myths, and you call them biases, and we totally agree with that, because the confirmation bias is probably the most deadly. You're convinced that your stuff works even though you've never had it tested or probed. You're convinced that your personnel are great just because they've got great resumes. And you know what? That's on a fast track to getting beheaded on camera, and that's never a popular end to a situation.

Yeah, absolutely. So that's why I think the very important thing is what you guys are doing, not only with your training, but with this kind of podcast, you know? Because we need to spread that word, you know, because we constantly have agents dying, protectees dying, and nobody analyzes and nobody gets to the point. So that's very important, because what happened in Mexico is also very (relevant to the) United States or wherever, if things start to be complicated. And also in Mexico, we have a lot of problems with the cartels, and once more, people think that it can be handled with guns. And it's absolutely the other way around.

Imagine if you have to work in an area controlled by a cartel – and not all the areas of Mexico are controlled by cartels, that's important, for example, some cities are, some not – but in those areas, what are you going to do with the gun, for example? Shoot your way in and shoot your way out? That's the first question. And sometimes the American companies have their international policies: "You need to have a gun in the armored car, whatever the protectee goes." And one friend of mine who has a security company, they put pressure on him, and he finally agreed to get that kind of detail in this crazy area. And, of course, they kidnapped the guy with a gun, and they tortured him for 24 hours before they realized that he was really so stupid to go there, you know, with the gun. They didn't want to kill him because they generally don't want to mess with people who don't mess with them. They just want to make sure that you're not the other cartel who are entering their territory. Business. It's a business, right? It's a business, of course. Exactly.

So, and then if you have a gun, I mean, come on, what are you going to do with that gun? So, we had a detail, our team – I wasn't there – and they were waiting in front of the restaurant and taking care of the situation in that area. And then suddenly, a big truck came, full with the guys with their uniform. As you know, they have their uniform, the cartel has uniforms with their logos and all the stuff, big guns. And they said, "Good afternoon, gentlemen, what are you doing here?" "Oh, well, we are protecting the guys there." "Okay, okay, so, do you have weapons?" "No, sir, we don't." "Okay, where are you heading after?" "To the airport." "You guys have a good afternoon." Wow, then, yeah. And that's it: diplomacy. That's a thing too.

I mean, you can't – those are such great stories to highlight, one, the complexities of operating in Mexico, but just understanding how you look at it. I mean, you don't run the show, like you can't walk in like that. You're going into someone else's area. I mean, that's with anything we do. I've been in places where I've just – this wasn't even doing any type of protection work or anything – just I'm taking photos and talking to people, and someone comes up and (says), "Hey, what are you doing here?" And I'm like, "Okay, taking a look around." Like, clearly these people run this street, they run this neighborhood. And I do the, "Hey, I'm sorry, I'm Brian, I'm no one. I'm just doing this. I'm letting you know, if you'd like me to leave, I'll take off right now." "Okay, no, you're good. I was just trying to see what was happening." It's like, "Okay," you know, you're there. Even though that was in the city in the United States, where you could call the police, like, nah, they weren't there right there. So exactly.

So that's the thing, it's like, you know, you can't come in like you own the territory. And, you know, it's such an interesting and unique operating environment down there with you guys. And so I know you have to, you're forced to kind of use that diplomacy out of survival and necessity. Like, you don't get to play by your rules. You have to play by a bunch of different sets of rules. You've got just normal government rules, police and city-wide rules and policies, and business rules. And then you've got all these folks with all this power down there in that country that you've got to play by their rules too sometimes.

Yeah, and it's interesting, we had another situation. I was working last year, I was in Honduras. And, you know, you can ask, "Why are the executives going to those places to begin with?" You know, because they're generally places where the US Government told you not to go. And so the first recommendation, I think, out of nothing, should be, "Yeah, you shouldn't go there." But if you know the ground and you understand the situation, you know that there are rules. And if it's necessary – and why it's necessary – because there are factories there, there are facilities, there are places where the protectee has their companies, and they're working there, producing clothes or whatever. And he just needs to go there, and you need to bring him there secure. So that's the thing, that's the big challenge.

And we were going to a place in Honduras that's all around a Mara gang territory. It's all around. And there, if you use Waze, for example, Google Maps or that kind of app in that place, if you didn't do your advance work, the app is going to take you, instead of taking you to the factory, they're going to take you to the – because it's some kind of mistake – into the center of the Mara territory. You're not going to get out. So yeah, but if you go there and do your business, they're not messing with you, even (the) Mara. And I was there, I can testify that. Why? Because a lot of their mothers, sisters, wives are working in that company, and they're making clothes.

So even they had an incident between them and they shot at the factory. And the next day, they called the chief of security of the place. He said, "Please tell Gringo it's not with him. The problem is not with him, right?" So that's beautiful. So he's fine, the problem is not with him. "Please tell him not to get out of the factory." Yeah, so that's true. So sometimes there are rules that you need to follow when you're good there, but you cannot provoke them. You need to use a lot of diplomacy, a lot of negotiation, low profile. And it's, yeah, it's challenging, but it's interesting. Yeah, that's true in absolutely everything we do.

And Brian, I would tell you, I'm so happy to finally have Ivan on the call. It's so rare, Ivan, for us to find a true subject matter expert in any industry, because there's a lot of subject matter experts on the ground when it comes to law enforcement, first responder, but it's few and far between the ones that are thinkers rather than just operators. And there's a big difference there, you know? And so when we get to talk to you, we could go on hours and hours because, you know, you're preaching to the choir, we get it. And hopefully we'll get more people to listen, you know.

The stories are great, I mean, because they're, and you know, they just show what could possibly go wrong in some of these situations, especially down in Mexico or other places in Latin America, where the threshold for what could potentially go wrong is much higher than it is, say, in the United States or in certain European countries versus others. But I do just want to plug your book because it's called Executive Protection in the 21st Century: A New Vision. Got it. I've got mine, I haven't finished mine yet, but there's some great stuff in here. And some great analogies that are just like simple takeaways that I can be like, "Okay, this is how I need to look at it," versus, "Here's not so much, here's what to do, do this, go, you know?" But it's really, "Oh, if I take this approach, I'm really going to start getting ahead of the curve." And obviously we love stuff like that; that's what we love showing people. "Hey, it's not just about your tactics, techniques, and procedures; those are all very important. But here's some thinking points, right? Here's a vision." And you're calling it a "new vision," which I love that you say, "Well, it's really not new, it's just, it's just..." But it is. It's the same thing we teach about human behavior, like nothing we teach is some new, riveting scientific information just found out last year, you know? I mean, these are things that have stood the test of time, but here's how to use them, here's how to actually operationalize it. And so that's what I love about the book. And I'll have the link (in the) episode details and all that stuff for folks. But I was just curious if there's anything you wanted to say about the book, or kind of what your idea was behind it, and what sort of your goal of it is.

Well, thank you, thanks so much for mentioning the book. Well, the main thing with the book, and the main thing with everything that we were talking (about), is really to save lives. And once you're in a real situation, everything that generally is on the internet and the media is not going to work. So that's what I call the "New Vision." That's actually, as you just said, it's not new, but it's the alternative of what has been done all the time. So, and that's the traditional approach, what I call it. It's just not working in a real situation. So the thing is, this is something that is my proposal, so to say, but it can be any other. The important thing is, stop doing what we did all the time because that's most likely not going to work, and that is going to cost lives. So we need to change with this concept or any other concept, but not more of the same. That's great.

I love it. I appreciate that so much, Ivan. And it was, it's great having you on. We loved when we (were there last time in) Mexico City. You guys were such amazing hosts. I love Mexico in general. I mean, I live out in San Diego, so I'm close to the border here. And because, I love Mexican food, I love Mexican beer, I love Mezcal and Tequila. But you guys were incredible hosts, and you know, we got to learn a lot, we got to see a lot, and we got treated so well, which is, you know, not normally how we are treated when we go places. So it was nice, but it was great. So we'd love to absolutely come down there again, and we'll be in touch with you further about all the other things we're talking about. But, you know, the EP Summit that you guys do down there every year, it grows every year, if I'm not mistaken. It looks like it really is grown. The one we were at, I think you guys still have that same location there, but it's a beautiful setup. You guys do it every October, I think, or right around that time. And it's, you know, you really bring in a lot of different professionals from all over that industry, from all over the world, really.

We met folks, I think, from England, we met folks from the US, from Mexico, from South America, Central America, from Serbia, of course. Exactly. We met people from countries that don't exist anymore technically! But, you know what? They all spoke the same language. Even though not everybody spoke Spanish fluently, everybody spoke the language of executive protection, security, human behavior, human performance, and that went everywhere, and everybody got it. And that's what we love. And I'll tell you what, we've got to do another one of these, Ivan, down the road a little bit, and we've got to try to do it in Spanish for those markets, because that's really hard. Like you found with your book, you had to release it in English as well, right? Because there's a market for it. And you know, our book just came out, and we want to make sure that we get it as well, because there are so many people that follow our work. And, you know, I hear it all the time from Gonzalo, "Gosh, if you guys just spoke fluent Spanish!" "Well, we're trying. I've had Babbel now for two years, you know, and it's..." (It's) not as easy as you might think, right? So we're trying. We've got to send you a copy of our book as well. We've got to make sure because we want you to, we want you to have something to rest on on the plane, you know?

Please, it will be an honor for me. And of course, everything you need to promote the book in Latin America and all the places we work with, please, it will be a pleasure.

Thanks, I appreciate (that). Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in, listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with your friends. And don't forget that training changes behavior.