The Parking Lot

Hello everyone, and welcome to The Human Behavior Podcast. In today's episode, we're taking you to a place you visit every single day: the parking lot, and showing how that simple strip of asphalt can become a live classroom for human behavior pattern recognition and analysis. For the longtime listeners who have heard us talk about parking lots before, this episode is going to be different.

Today, we are using the 2023 Covenant school shooting report as our case study to break down how one lone car, parked far from the building and occupied for more than an hour, broadcasted danger long before a single shot was fired.

Now, this isn't a true crime recap. It's a how-to session:

• How to read baselines and spot the incongruent signals.
• How to separate intent from after-the-act motives.
• And how a moment of informed curiosity can shut down a tragedy before it starts.

So, grab your notepads, buckle up, and think about the last parking lot you pulled into, or maybe the one you're driving past right now. Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Don't forget to check out our Patreon channel for additional content and subscriber-only episodes. If you enjoyed the podcast, please consider leaving us a review and, more importantly, sharing it with a friend. Thank you for your time and remember, training changes behavior.

All right, Greg, we're going to go ahead and jump in this morning. We've got a topic that we've kind of discussed before, and we talk about a lot in class, and we use as an analogy, and that's the parking lot. Some of you will kind of know where we're going with this, but you know, a parking lot is a great analogy for human behavior in general. There's a lot of specifics we can get into it, but it's a great way to understand how humans operate in terms of setting patterns and how to look for incongruent signals, how to find things out of place, and how to attribute value and understanding.

So, the parking lot can be used as a sensemaking exercise, it can be used to explain human behavior, right? It's what we would call a transition area. You're going to a store, you have to park in the parking lot. Anyone is welcome there, or there are only certain ways in and out. There's a specific flow that it's designed to use. So there are just so many different things that we can talk about within a parking lot.

It's a great one to watch and observe and understand human behavior, and to put terms to different things about why people set certain patterns. Some of them are created by the person who built the parking lot, and then some become created by use over time of people maybe taking a shortcut. And so, it changes the environment, and the environment influences people. So, it's just a general one we're going to get into.

There are different exercises and things that we talk about people doing, like typical human behavior. I want to pull up to the grocery store and I want to park as close to the store as I possibly can. If I could park in the aisle, I would, because I'm that lazy, and then I could just reach out and grab my produce and drive out, right? That's why drive-throughs are there. But the idea is that that's a general way to look at it.

Now, people are going to say, "Well, I don't park there because this and I don't." It's like, "Okay, yeah, right. You're right." Someone will say, "Well, I park farther away because I don't want my door getting dinged up by someone." And I go, "Yeah, that's a great example, actually, because you're demonstrating intent." Meaning, you made a conscious choice, a deliberate choice, to not park closer for a specific reason. Now, in your case, it's that, "Hey, I don't want my car to get dinged up," or "I got a nice car," or "I've seen it out here where you'll see like the person." I saw a Ferrari taking up two parking spots. It parked on an angle. And in that case, I was kind of like, "All right, you know, if I had a Ferrari, if I had a $250,000 car, I'd probably take up two parking spaces, and if someone had a problem with it, I'd just probably throw them a $100 bill or something like that." I don't know. It's when it's like, "All right, I would probably do that too." But anyway, there are things like that.

And then there's maybe the owner of the store or establishment said to his employees, "Hey, you park in the back of the lot. The spots up close are for customers." Or you might go in there and say, "I'm on my lunch break. I want to go sit away from everyone. I want to listen to some music and eat a sandwich," right? But the point is that's sort of incongruent. All of those things are incongruent with what's typical.

Now, that's important to understand. I'm not saying that there's something inherently wrong with that, or it's just different. It's interesting. You may say your doctor may have told you, "Hey, one way to get more steps in and more physical activity is when you're out doing your daily stuff, go park away from where you're going so you get a few steps in." Okay? But that's all goal-oriented behavior. That means you have a demonstration of your intent to do something. I don't know what that thing is, but it's different than everyone else in the parking lot. It's incongruent, right? So, that's a quick explanation. We're going to get into all that, but this is why we're discussing parking lots again.

And the why is because I'm going to just read it to you here. And what I'm reading from is called an Incident Summary, an Investigative Case Summary, put together by the Metro Nashville Police Department Criminal Investigations Division, their Homicide Unit. And this was after the Covenant Presbyterian Church and School that was attacked on March of 2023. So this report just came out at the end of March here in 2025.

And right off the bat, if any of those folks who follow us or have seen this report, you're going to know exactly where I'm going with this because I'll just read a couple paragraphs from it.

"At approximately 8:00 AM on March 27, 2023, Audrey Hale left her residence on Brightwood Drive in Nashville, Tennessee. When she exited her residence, she was carrying a large duffel bag which contained several firearms, ammunition for those firearms, tactical gear, and her stuffed animals. She also had with her a backpack containing two notebooks and assorted items. She loaded those bags into her vehicle, a 2014 Honda Fit hatchback (a smaller car), and left her residence. She then drove to Royal Range USA in Nashville, arriving there at 8:16 AM. Upon arriving at this location, she drove to a far corner of the parking lot, well away from the building and the entrance to the lot. So, away from the building and away from the entrance to the parking lot. Once there, she donned her tactical vest, affixed magazine pouches to her belt. The vest was loaded with several spare magazines, an automatic knife, and other equipment. She then assembled and loaded three different firearms. She then remained in her vehicle in the parking lot of the location for over an hour and finally left the location at 9:33 AM. She then drove directly to the Covenant Presbyterian Church and School, arriving there at 9:53 AM. Upon arriving at the school, she first drove through the parking lot slowly before parking her vehicle in a parking lot on the west side of a building. Upon parking her vehicle, she waited inside her vehicle for several minutes. During this time, Hale sent goodbye messages to a friend through Instagram Messenger. And approximately 10:09, she exited her vehicle, slung two firearms around her neck and shoulders, and approached one of the west entrances to the building." (So, not the main entrance, the west entrance.)

So, the investigation report continues on. You can all read it, right? I'll send out the links, and if you're on our Patreon, I'll send out the direct links and some other information and photos in there. And right at the beginning of that report is a stunning photo. I posted it on our Instagram the other day and it literally shows the size of the parking lot. There are only one or two other vehicles right in the front. So, the perspective is from the building looking out into the parking lot, and it's just this open waters of a parking lot, and then one vehicle parked all the way as far as you possibly can in the corner, not near the entrance. So, it's a very powerful image.

So, that's the so what, the reason why we're talking about the parking lots today. And I preface the information with a little bit about it. But Greg, I want to go to you to kind of kick this off. I've been talking long enough right here at the beginning, so I'll let you get some words in. But this is extremely powerful, extremely significant. You sent me this report, and I didn't have time to go through it. I just opened it up, read just those two paragraphs. I read and stopped and texted you and literally said, "Holy, you know, what? Like, wow." I didn't know this yet because a lot of these facts of these cases don't come out for a while. You don't get all the details until an investigation comes out, which is why we typically don't comment on things, but it's so powerful to us. So, let's kind of maybe start there on why this is so powerful.

So, I would say this. I would say it's rare that I disagree with Brian, and even more rare when I disagree with Brian in public. Generally, those conversations—and not an argument, never an argument—start when Brian says, "You've had enough to drink." Those type of things. But in this instance, you said two times something that I will take umbrage with, and I'll explain why. You said at the very beginning, "Hey folks, when you listen to us talk about parking lots, you'll know where we're going." And then again, when you said, "Hey, anybody that's familiar with this case of Audrey Hale and the Covenant Presbyterian School, church school, you'll know where we're going."

And you know what? I don't think that people sometimes do. I think that sometimes it's easy for them to conflate issues, Brian. The idea is that you, when you're speaking, you're speaking strictly from a human behavior pattern recognition left and analysis right way of thinking. And it's so common that you miss the fact that somebody sitting at home might not know why we're... and no, no, that's...

Let me just hit on that real quick. That's an excellent point, and thank you for pointing that out. I was kind of speaking to, you know, the cognoscenti, the folks on our Patreon, the folks who we talk to and who we've trained with, and those kind of people. So, not to a general audience. Okay. So yes, I guess that's who I meant. But good point because it was... Yeah, totally get it. But let's start more towards tabula rasa.

So, I want to give everybody that's listening, get out your yellow pad. I want to give you two things. I want to give you the FBI look at it very, very, very simply. "This model is not a profile of a shooter, or a checklist of danger signs pointing to the next adolescent who will be lethal violence to a school. Those things do not exist." Okay, there's the first part of it. "And then, issues facing educators in predicting an individual who's never acted out violently in the past will do so in the future is even more difficult." And then I could go down a little bit more.

So real quick, Greg, can you say where that was from, and we'll cite it on the thing? The idea is that the FBI spent years, 25 years, compiling a report.

And the report is the most important document that's out there about school shooters. It's the most comprehensive. It's had the most research. It's defended all of its findings. And then the last couple of comments I'll bring from it: "Motivation can never be known with complete certainty, but to the extent possible, understanding motivation is a key element in evaluating a threat." Then they go on and they say, "Okay, non-violent people do not snap or decide on the spur of a moment to meet a problem with violence. Instead, the path towards violence is an evolutionary one with many signposts along the way." And then they said misinformation: "Here's the common misinformation and stop using it. School violence is an epidemic. All shooters are alike. School shooters are always loners." And it goes on and on.

Okay. So, why did I bring that up? So, here's my comparison. I want you to have your yellow pad ready. And I want you to write these next couple of things down:

• Rape
• Homicide
• Robberies
• Kidnappings
• Theft (general theft)
• Auto theft
• Carjacking
• Numerous other violent acts that are going on.

Every one that I just said occurs in a parking lot. We know they occur in a parking lot, and there's a higher incidence of those situations in a parking lot than anywhere else. Okay. So, if I knew that, and then I just had the FBI report queued up next to me, and I look at that, which baseline do you think I'll have a better, more robust comparison against? The one for the parking lot and turmoil, turbidity, incongruent signals, reasonable suspicion, or the gosh-darn report from the smartest guys in the FBI?

So, if the FBI is telling you, "Hey, there's not a lot there, and you can't really dig into it," what they're trying to tell you is the closer to bang you are, the more you're going to be able to see. Because even their four-point standard of threat assessment is wrong sometimes. But you know what's not wrong? When you see somebody that has two bags that are so heavy that they have to walk backwards and they're wearing a vest, that's probably not the UPS guy.

So, what Brian and I do, and what HBPRNA (Human Behavior Pattern Recognition and Analysis) does, is it says, "What are the simple things that I can see that show me demonstrations of intent?" And once I see a demonstration of intent, I'm probably already past the "hey, that's interesting" phase and on to the "assessing anomalous behavior" phase, meaning that I'm pre-attack. Okay, pre-incident leads to pre-attack. What happens is most people are going, "Well, those are pre-attack behaviors." You don't know. So, don't use that terminology. But I can tell you this, interest has to come before reasonable suspicion, has to come before probable cause.

So, what did Brian just read us? Brian read us early morning hours. And I don't mean dawn. I mean early morning hours where people would normally pull into a parking lot and do what type of behavior? I'm going to eat breakfast. I'm going to change from my work clothes to my school clothes. I'm going to pick up other people because we have a carpool. Brian, we could go down a litany of reasonable things that a person's going to do. None of that. We had none of that. Likelihood was high on those. We didn't have that.

Now, we had stuff that was more analogous to perhaps a medical emergency, okay? Or somebody fighting for their life that's being raped inside of a car. The car is parked off. It's still running. It's a hatchback. Why is that important? Okay, they're making all kinds of important things in this study that aren't. Why is it important that the hatchback is like a fishbowl? A lot of windows all around. I know, Brian. It wasn't a van. It wasn't a van with curtains. It wasn't the back of a step van, okay? Where nobody could see it.

And the idea that why does somebody choose a further out? You touched on this, but the geographics of a parking lot always are tied to some sort of logic. "I'm parking here because an hour before I get off, the shade from that tree will make my car cooler." "I'm parking here, like you said, because my boss said, 'Hey, don't park by the entrance. That's for customers, for paying people.'" All it would have taken is one person that was curious, one person that was interested in going, "Hey, I wonder what's happening over there." If you're not a cop and you're a citizen or you're an owner of a local company, just driving by, just using a pair of binoculars would have stopped this event in its tracks.

Brian, she already sent her messages. She already kissed everybody goodbye. She was going to carry on no matter what got in her way. And where does the public think? Great article, great story, great research done, and a lot of study by Nashville. You got to give them a lot of credit, Brian. It's a great study. But where do you think they got the photos and the videos that are in that study? Okay. So, if you could film it, you could stop it.

And I'll say one last thing, and then we'll go in a more itemized list so we can follow logic. Folks, I know you're all over your yellow pad and putting exclamation points, but that's how I think. Brian, when we look, who could say to us, "Well, you're not taking into consideration blank?" Don't give an [expletive] because if it happens, it's going to start in the parking lot before it gets to your front door. It's going to happen somewhere. And what you've created now—and you use the term that we use all the time—a transition area. Look, you have to come out of the woods and go across the grass to get to the building. And you know what's mostly in your way? Parking lot. So, if we think of the lowest common denominator, and we think of the least intervention by you, a public person, a citizen, or a cop, or HR, or whatever you do, the parking lot's the place.

Yeah. And so this is why we start there, right? So we could, I mean, we could set up chairs and a whiteboard and a classroom in a parking lot and never leave that parking lot and be there every day for a month teaching about human behavior, and every day for the rest of our lives. You don't have to; everything is right there. And that's why I use this as an analogy. And it's tough to, you know, we're not going to be able to touch on everything in a podcast episode, but it's a great way to look at the world because in the world, just like in a parking lot, there are rules, right? There are norms, there are social norms, there are directions, there's engineering behind it, there's a purpose, there's an intent behind what the parking lot's there for, why it was designed a certain way. And then humans then have to interact with it. So humans interact with it, and they generally follow certain patterns.

So if the parking lot is constructed in an optimal way, right? They're going to go in and out the right way, they're going to use the right direction. But maybe sometimes the design is flawed, or a traffic light comes in later and it changes the flow of something, and then you'll see like maybe people don't know where to go or there's an odd stop sign right when you pull in, and it messes... I mean, you can see that you're like, "Oh, this feels weird," or "What? Why is everything getting backed up here?" Because the design isn't optimal, right?

And then so what'll happen is then people might go, "Well, [expletive] this. I'm not going all the way through the middle here. I'm going to go around the outside where I know it's easier to go." And then that creates a pattern. Then once other people see it, and they go, "Oh, okay. I see it." So now there sort of like becomes this new natural order, organic order to this chaos in a parking lot versus how it was designed. You'll see stuff like that at like maybe large events, sporting events, county fair or something where they kind of came in and had to do like the ad hoc parking lot where it's a dirt lot, and then things start getting messed up and then people start parking each other in because it's not really defined.

Humans are just going to... the people directing the traffic at those events go, "Why aren't you seeing it the way I'm seeing it?" In your head, they had rehearsed and have a plan and everything else, but you're coming in and everything looks exactly the same, and now you're going left instead of right. Let me give you, before you go on, because you're onto something here. Let me give you a local one.

So you love Starbucks, and we go to Starbucks before class often. Shel, I get that green tea, green tea. It's so good. Shel hates Starbucks because of their politics, and Shel's angry all the time, and she won't go. So now Gunnison has two. Gunnison has a Starbucks in the City Market, and Gunnison has a Starbucks in town, which is ridiculous. A horrible standard for such a small place. And we go to Stephanie's place on the outskirts of town because it's local.

But the other day on a whim, I wanted my pistachio. So I go, "I'm going to get that cold brew with a pistachio hint." It was amazing drink. I'm giving them a shout-out now. And they didn't have it. But when I went in the parking lot with my normal-sized Toyota pickup truck, I hit every curb. Couldn't make the turn up to the sign. Almost took the sign off to pay. This place is brand new. It's a brand new Starbucks that recently opened. And you know what they built it for? They built it for a place back east, east of Mississippi, that's got small cars and electric cars and all that other stuff. Even the place where you wait to have them bring it out to you, or run in to grab your order. Brian, they were made for mid- to small-sized cars, so nobody can navigate it. And then they put these huge curbs that are in it to guide you. And everybody that I saw, we actually sat there for a minute and took a couple of photos because everybody with a pickup truck had to edge and back up and come in and out.

So what? So the familiarity with geographics means a ton when you're a curious observer, because that alone can draw your interest to somebody going through. Do they know? Do they not know? Are they parked there for too long? Because have they been here before? Have they not? Right? I mean, so, so what you're saying to me resonates deeply because even you, common citizen, not a cognoscente, that's watching something can determine, "Oh, that guy's just using that parking lot to beat the light." "That person is using that parking lot because they're lost and they're just doing a U-turn." "That person's using that parking lot because it's off the beaten path and they're going to make out or they're going to drink." You get what I'm saying? Those are the things that we'll never know unless we what? Unless we investigate, unless we drive over and take a look, or walk over and take a peek.

And what you just described, these are sensemaking exercises that you can do that get you better at understanding human behavior and how people make decisions and understanding their intent. And those are all pre-event indicators. That's what allows you to see these things, you know? I had mentioned it when I posted this on social media. It was like, it would have taken one person driving through that parking lot to go, "Hmm, that's odd. Let me just go down that row real quick and drive past and see Audrey Hale sitting there with full kit on and three guns, and you're going that one," or "sitting there eating a sandwich, you know, having a cigarette on their lunch break." You know what I'm saying? And to go, "Okay, it's that simple to prevent a school shooting." And like, I don't think people understand that as a whole. And then that's what I think you meant too. I think that's what you're alluding to as well when I said, "Okay, you'll see where I'm going with this." It's like people really, really don't. They, they, and I get the comments on there too, which is why I love we can talk about that is, you know, you get some comments on social media like, "Oh, well, it could just be this." It could, it's like, "You're right, it could be a person on their break. It could be a person who is in their parlor," but this wasn't. And you don't know that until you go, "that." So, so you attribute value. You have this observation. Go, "Oh, it's just this. Oh, it's just that. Oh, it's just this."

And add to that. Add to that. Complacency is a danger, right? But we don't name what complacency is. Complacency is saying that I'm homeostasis. Everything's fine. Nothing's going to change. So that's the third or fourth time that you go and check, and it's just somebody doing a dumpster drop-off, or it's a person waiting for their kid that takes a different way back from school and they're going to pick them up, or it's a person that thinks your wife is cheating on them so they're sitting there to get a better view of the Motel 6 across. Okay. So, the third or fourth time that you've checked an incongruent signal and it comes up to be nothing, you get dumber. So what's the fourth time? The fourth time is, "Ah, it's probably one of those first three." That's complacency.

So, it's incumbent upon you—and this is for everybody listening to us—that you have to be the harbinger of the message. You have to go over and take a look. And if you don't feel comfortable, call the police. A good cop would rather come a hundred times for nothing than one time for what happened at the Covenant Presbyterian Church and School. And anybody will back that up. That's a good cop, Brian. And you're right. You don't know. You don't know. So, the experiment is on the table. You have to go take a look. And it's that simple.

Well, and because again, parking lots are in public places, they're meant to be easily accessible, right? The shops want people coming into the parking lot to come to their store. It's generally convenient, right? So, because we're in there, because it's a public place, because anyone is allowed to go to any parking lot anywhere, right? I can no longer… Starbucks changed their policy, so I can't go in and use the bathroom and sit in there for half a day without buying anything anymore. That's, they changed that. But the idea, but yeah, that's where I'm calling from. I'm actually in my car that I live in, in a Starbucks parking lot right now. This is a fake backdrop, but no, but so there's a certain degree of anonymity in a parking lot, especially when it's a, you know, you go to the mom and pop restaurant off the beaten path, and the only people going to that parking lot either are going to eat there or going to work there, right? But in something like this, in this large parking lot where you got several stores and maybe one of the big box stores like a Home Depot or a Target or something like that, well, there's that degree of anonymity in there.

So now I'm in there. I'm likely to do things because I'm like, "Well, I'm hidden in plain sight here. No one can see me. I'm doing whatever it is." So whether that's a meetup for a dope deal, whether that's, you know, I've seen some horrible ones where it's a child custody change where they meet in a parking lot to change the kids, and then it, you know, erupts into a domestic violence situation. But, you know, it, that's where these things happen, and they're places you go to every single day with your family or kids sometimes, and you're checked out. You're focused on what you're doing, and literally the school shooter is prepping for an attack right down the aisle from you, and it's not meant to scare you to talk about this. It means it's all out there.

So, like you said, the parking lot, before I can go in and do anything, I have to drive there, I have to park, and I have to get out of my vehicle and go do and then carry out this attack. So all that time I have beforehand, all of those things are just screaming out to people, and those are the signals to pay attention to. And then you could even get into from this one, the specifics of, well, you know, someone's going to go, "Well, why did she choose that parking lot? Was it significant?" It's like, "Okay, well, maybe she'd been there before, right? Maybe she knows that place. Maybe she thought, 'Oh, it's a shooting range, so maybe I'm less likely to stick out here if I have a bunch of guns.'" So, so there's thought put into all of those things, and that demonstrates her intent obviously for this attack, but it's so unbelievably powerful that like, I mean, obviously this is why we're talking about it, but you don't typically sit in your car for an hour in a parking lot like that. That doesn't happen. It's not typical behavior.

Let's talk about that for just a minute. So there's a law on parking lots, and so if it's a private parking lot, which most parking lots are, they're private to that business. So, for example, Walmart, the parking lot is owned by Walmart. It's not owned by the city. It's owned by Walmart. And so, Walmart has certain things that they can do. Like Walmart allows you to change your oil in their parking lot. They allow you to camp in their parking lot. You get what I'm saying? And so, that's theirs. And for example, if you run a stop sign in the Walmart parking lot—they have them all over the place, you know, to ease you getting in and out of the place—a cop can't stop you for that. As a matter of fact, a cop can only stop you in a parking lot like that if you've committed a felony in their presence, or for example, something as goofy compared to that felony in progress as handicap. They can enforce a handicap.

So, those are important standards. So, somebody, even though it's a public parking lot, owns it and has to maintain it, and that's the person you sue if you slip and fall. Let me give you an example. In Colorado, I'm interim chief of police of a ski resort town. Okay? Waiting for the ranch to open, all those other things. So, I have to go to town council meetings, and they're horrible. And I'm at a town council meeting. The argument is that it's a million dollars a parking spot at this city. A million dollars a parking spot. So, when they call the cops to ticket somebody or tow somebody, they mean it. That business only got two parking spots. Okay. And it cost them $2 million to open in that strip mall.

Brian, so you understand that people do pay attention to it. You remember a couple years ago, folks, where Brian and I were talking about how it didn't look like... it looked like an inside job to us, the robbery of the armored car, and how the armored car pulled in in front of the place because it's the most convenient spot, and they start opening the doors, but there's a car in the snow backed in, running, with all the windows cracked a bit and guys inside chain-smoking. For the love of God.

Okay. All we're saying is, you... when I said earlier pre-attack behavior, pre-attack behavior is me sitting in a car loading a gun. Okay, that's pre-attack. That's probably the last thing you're going to see. Pre-event behavior is actually what Brian's talking about, and it's a much lower standard and easier to achieve. "Why is that guy been sitting there idling in that car for that long?" And here you have Audrey Hale that is down and in. She's on a mission. She's got a plan in her head. So, she's not attending to those things that are immediately around her. And that's your bonus. The bonus is that while this person is putting on a vest and doing all these other things, even a casual observer is going to say, "That's interesting." And once you say, "That's interesting," you can foil everything that comes after that. You can be the pair of scissors that cuts that plan off right there. The fuse, remember the old Wile E. Coyote round bomb, and there's a fuse. And how many times did you see him stop it by just cutting it? You know, and that could be you.

And this is the perfect case. You don't have to delve. Brian, how many pages did you honestly go through before you saw that, before the light hit you that, "Oh my gosh, it was all here?"

It was probably the first paragraph.

Okay, there you go. So, so if that's so true, then why did we see all day yesterday everybody going T-shirt and stained-glass window? And why do we always see that? What's the reliance on that?

Well, so what happens is we, we, we in general, in just a general statement, humans do not understand these situations because if you're sitting there reading through this like you're, you're, you're not... you've never thought about, "I'm going to go shoot up a school. I'm going to go kill a bunch of people. I want to go do this or I'm angry about that." And so because you've never had that experience and you don't know what that's like, we naturally aren't going to understand it. So then we try to, we try to sort of make ourselves feel better. I think a lot of this is literally just driven by the fact that because we don't understand, and that's scary, and I don't want to think about this, or I don't want to think that anyone could do this, or it's got to be a monster. So, we create a monster, and then we look at all these things and say, "Oh, well, it's because of this," or "Oh, they did it because they were bullied," or "They're this incel," or "They had this issue or that." And "That's what we need to focus on." It's like, "No, look, man. A lot of people have those issues, you know? A lot of people have a hard time getting laid. A lot of people have that. They don't go kill a bunch of people for it." You know what I mean?

So, so we try to look at things like, "Okay, well, you know, she had her teddy bears with her, stuffed animals." I don't know what exactly it was. So, she had her stuffed animals, or wore a certain shirt, or this. It's like, "Yes, that was important to them, but that's not... that doesn't have to do understanding why they chose a specific stuffed animal isn't going to help you understand or see or prevent the next attack." Those things don't matter because they're so personal to that person, and you may not know. I see so many people making [expletive] up after the fact, and I'm like, "Did you interview this person? Were you part of the investigation? Did you talk to them? Did they tell you why that was?" You know, because it's like the... what was his name, Berkowitz? Like, "Oh, the neighbor's dog told me to do that," which he [expletive] made up and said later on that he made up. But it caught on, and everyone went, "Oh, he's crazy. He's this." It's [expletive] [expletive], right? And it doesn't, it doesn't... like, and it doesn't help me understand the situation. In fact, it makes it worse. It makes it harder to see what the next thing is going to be because now I'm looking for people that, you know, are listening to dogs or I'm looking for people that are carrying around their stuffed animals. And it's like, "Look, dude, that may mean absolutely nothing." And that person themselves, they don't, they don't even fully understand why they're doing that. Most of these people don't. If you're if you're thinking about and planning and going to kill a bunch of kids, you're so far off that anything that you do, it's nonsense at that point, right? It only means something to you, and it's a totally subjective.

I mean, this is why we don't get into the motive a lot with these different things because it doesn't [expletive] matter. And there's going to be a new motive next month, and there's going to be another one after that, and then in a few years, they're going to be calling this figure it out. And so, so all of that research and study into this or papers or books people write about is [expletive] [expletive] because it doesn't stand the test of time, and it doesn't help me in any manner. And so, but understanding how people behave, the decisions that they make, and the actions that they take are the most important part because that tells you what they're likely going to do. That tells you about intent and understanding, "Okay, this person is sitting here because they're on a break from work. They've been [expletive] stressed and they don't want to be near anyone and they want to sit by themselves and they want to eat a sandwich and they want to listen to a podcast or listen to their music or whatever." Okay, that's typical behavior. Okay, but that's very, very different than everything you just described that she was doing in her vehicle at the time.

And so those things too look differently. They feel differently, right? You don't have to be some trained expert to look at that and go, "Okay, I see what's happening." You just have to drive by and go, "Hmm, that seems odd." I may not know exactly why this seems odd, but here now what we're discussing is why you're thinking that. This is why that's an incongruent signal. Okay. So, so that's all you need to be at. Once you can recognize those, it, it, it doesn't matter what the point is or where the attack was going to happen, or who the target was, or what the motive is behind it because you're never going to know that [expletive] because that person doesn't even [expletive] know that [expletive] very well. They're so confused and they have so much emotional and cognitive turbidity that they're going through that they're just grasping at things to validate their feelings and to allow them to continue on and carry out this attack. Right? So, you, you have to justify it to yourself. They still have to, like, they know it's wrong what they're doing, but they've gotten past that by for all of these other reasons, whether it was a chemical imbalance, "I was on pills," "Someone treated me wrong," "Someone did this," "I'm going to put all that," and then "I'm going to write it down in a manifesto and then I'm going to say, 'Yeah, and this guy had it right a hundred years ago.'"

And, you know, and it's, and so we, we, we all find that [expletive] interesting, but it's, it's basically [expletive] nonsense. It's basically someone who is, is cannot navigate the world in a typical manner and has such a difficult time doing this. And you know what? Is it their fault? No. They're not going to take responsibility for their actions. It's everyone else's fault. So, I'm going to go after them. Like, I'm not going to go after myself. I'm not going to say I'm the [expletive] problem. Everyone else is. But, and this is what it, it, I get and you do too. But it's like, I get so, it just drives me [expletive] nuts when I see all this stuff because it's people making stuff up, and it's entertaining. Yeah. But because it makes, Yeah. Well, it makes for a good movie. It makes for a good book. It makes for a good story. But so the [expletive] does Bigfoot, so does, so does the Chupacabra, so does, so does aliens. Like, it's just like, well, thanks, but I'm not only do I not know anything, I'm a little bit dumber after experiencing this and listening to that. Like, you know, my, well, well, my thing, and I always, I always bash, you know, everyone loves talking about like, like Ted Kaczynski, and I'm like, "Yes, the guy was a mathematical [expletive] genius." Okay. And unless you're also a mathematical [expletive] genius, you're probably not going to understand the guy. And he was all over the place with what he wrote and said, "But look at what he did. He took these steps. He rode his bike into..." Like, I keep using these because it's like, "Don't go off of what people say. People [expletive] say anything. People say [expletive] all the damn time." I think I've sworn more on this podcast than I have on any other because it's like, it was, it was so powerful because it's so powerful when you just look at someone's behavior and what they're doing compared to a contextual baseline, and literally Greg, you just, but your simple description of going to the Starbucks near you in your Toyota truck and navigating that. Okay, everyone has had that experience. Everyone listening has had that experience, whether it was at Starbucks or whether it was wherever, but you go, "Oh, well, it seems odd," or "This doesn't fit," or "This..." Like, so, so the things that you can do every single day to go, "Hmm, ooh, a piece of candy," or "Hmm, that looks weird," or "That's interesting," or "Hey, that..."

So, let the [expletive] bomb parade drop. For you shouldn't be sorry, you shouldn't be sorry, because Brian's worked up as I am, but I've had 24 hours to digest it and calm down because that's exactly the type of tirade when I was on the phone with Brian. "Can you believe this [expletive]?" So, you're doing the Gilbert Gottfried. Exactly. God darn it.

So, let's do a rectangular horizontal yellow pad reasonability study. Okay. Grab your pens, folks. If you drive and pull over for a minute, or be the passenger. Okay. So, what I want you to do is I want you to take a look on the left-hand side and just put three or four of the actions that we saw Audrey Hale doing. Then on the right-hand side, I want you to put things that happen every day. People get bad news every day. People get fired from jobs every day. People get over-emotional because somebody notified them that a recent mate or an old friend or a family member has died. A person just figured out that their truck is malfunctioning, and they've already called the auto club, and this was the closest parking lot. So, here you've got all the reasonable answers on one side of it, and you got Audrey Hale's demonstrations of intent on the other side.

So, what would the demonstrations of intent be like if you recently got fired from your job? So now we're on the right-hand side. Well, if you recently got fired from your job and you're slipping on a vest and you're loading a gun, Houston, we have a problem now. So, in your reasonability box, I want you to put, "Is it reasonable to assume that everybody that's ever gotten fired from a job has done that?" No. As a matter of fact, it's so rare that there are TV movies or books that are written about them, and that makes number one news. Okay, I'll buy that.

Well, what about incel? Brian and I are celibate and not together. We're not on the road. But so, being incels... Come on. They're still listening. But being incels, all right, I want you to think about that. A lot of us didn't get laid in high school, a lot of us, okay? And what we did is we did an Isla Vista and we went out and we amassed guns and we killed our roommate and rammed people and shot them until we shot ourselves. Well, no. As a matter of fact, that's so gosh-darn rare that I can only think of two instances in my lifetime where I can directly relate the incel to the crime. Okay.

So what happens, Brian, is we're getting Audrey and her activities, and her demonstration of intent are standing alone, and all these other ones are going nowhere. They're all going nowhere. It's the family waiting for that kid to get off school. It's the person that got fired that's just trying to take an emotional break before they get home to tell their significant other. It's all those things, and they can be packed with information and turbidity and emotion, but they don't lead to somebody the next place they're going, they're going to get out of their vehicle with a bunch of guns and kill people.

So, the idea is that every story is in play all the time. And so, that person that's parked up on the curb just in front of the ATM isn't going to rob the store and take the ATM. They're waiting for a wheelchair person in the City Market. But you don't know unless you check. You do sustained observation. You take a look. You call the store. You call the cops. You say, "This is interesting." You know why? Because there's not 70 cars parked up on the curb in front of the ATM. Most people follow rules. Most people got into the situation at that Starbucks that I was in because what? Because they thought, "Well, no problem. There's the drive-in window right over there." And then after doing the Jenga to try to get the truck in, they go, "I'm never coming back." And you might never know. You might work at that Starbucks and go, "Why is it that this plan didn't work in Gunnison?" And somebody's going to say, "Well, it's because Westerners don't drink caffeinated beverages." No. You see how we conflate things? So that's the people when you put stuff on social media and people snipe you. It's that person. It's the classic obstructionist that looks and goes, "Well, there's probably myriad reasons." Ah, there's myriad reasons. You know what? You know what? There's myriad reasons, but not when it comes down to your choice to go kill people, because then there's only a few choices. And those choices are, "I've got to do it with a bomb, a gun, or a knife. I've got to go to them or bring them to me." Do you see what I'm trying to say? The calculus gets a lot easier when that person is out there with bad intent on their mind.

And so, what's the common fabric that we can get to? The parking lot. I may never stop them on the road, Brian. Their driving may be perfect. I may never get the inclination that there's something wrong with that car, but in the parking lot, the preparatory behavior that I'm seeing is incongruent. And incongruence alone should be an interest motivator. And it should be the very thing at the big end of the funnel that gets me excited.

Well, and this case gets even more ridiculous in terms of the discussions about it because of all these [expletive] social issues that I don't care about, and that people shouldn't, and aren't going to [expletive] matter anymore. But the idea was it even had to say in the report, "Look, this was something that..." so this report was longer, and we had to add more information literally because it says, "It should be noted that in life..." and again, this is the investigation. "It should be noted that in life..." This is a legal document prepared, you know, with again, because I got some comments on social media where people are like, "Well, they called it an automatic knife and an AR." It's like, "Yeah, that's what that weapon is called. That's a term of description." And this is a report. They're like, "I wonder if the reporter..." I was like, "Did you read this? This wasn't written by this person." This is, yeah. But I, I, I obviously, of course, attributed this, "Hey, this is where this came from," and so people know the facts of the case. Like, this is, this is going through an investigation of what they found.

Well, but here's the thing. It said, "It should be noted that in life, the offender Audrey Hale gender identified as a male and used he/him as preferred pronouns. Under Tennessee law, a person's gender identity must correspond with their biological sex or with information present on their certificate of live birth. As Hale was a biological female at the time of her death and throughout the incidents described in the summary and in the case file, Hale will be referred to as a female." And so it's like, that's a clinical approach of how you do these things. But the mere fact that that had to be in there, to me, is like, "What the [expletive] what?" Those things don't [expletive] matter.

Now, I can say it's interesting to me because typically you don't see this happening with females. Like, females do this less than males. Like, females carry out these attacks at a much lower rate than males do. So that's interesting. But whether you know, it was a guy or a girl who did it, all of these steps would have been the same. So, so it's like you're sitting here looking at something that, "Well, okay, let's say it was a guy or a girl or this. Well, what, what, that, that doesn't change anything else that happened. So why is that relevant information even? What does that matter?" Because again, everyone wants to point the finger at something and say, "Oh, well, this mental health issue, and it was caused by this, and society's letting people do that, and we're going to see more." It's like, "You can't [expletive]... you don't [expletive] know that." This is the topic du jour over the last couple years. And you know what? In 10 years, it's going to be something else. So you're... what are you going to do? You're going to put all this time and effort into something that's going to be a new problem a few years from now. Like, those things are so irrelevant to prevention, to understanding, to sensemaking, to the recognition of how these things work. And so, to me, it's just like, "You're, you're, you're using this as some platform for some other purpose, right?" And then now it gets clouded, and now it gets buried down into some whatever political issue or social issue, other than what it should be as a criminal [expletive] act that could have been prevented. Like, that, that's the whole point. This is a horrific criminal act that could have been prevented, but we want to look at the car and the type of weapon, and what that person's political leanings were. And it's like, "Dude, what the [expletive]?" It's so...

Let's do an example. No, no, no. So, weaponizing information is always wrong because if I go to the staunch Republican, they're going to say this is the kind of mixed-up kid that happens when they don't know their gender identity. When we go to the Democrats, it's they killed because you picked on her because of her gender identity. Neither of those matter to being able to see and predict likelihood based on demonstrations of intent. So, let me give you one that almost never matters. That, that, and that was a much better way of putting into what I... No, no, no, no, no. And trust me, I understand because we both have emotional attachments to these type of events, and we're so immersed in them that it's hard to come up for air sometime because it seems like we're getting jabbed all the time, and then all of a sudden you get a punch like this, and it's just the memory of this event is just like it happened yesterday. And Brian and I compared this to other events in class, not to highlight this event, but to demonstrate that intent is much more important than motive.

So, there's a person that was in the news very recently, and they're saying, "Take a look at the shirt this person's wearing. Do you know the origin of that shirt?" Well, sometimes people do know the origin of the shirt they're wearing, and sometimes it's really important to the message that they're trying to deliver. But sometimes a shirt's an [expletive] shirt. Do your research. Take a look at the psychology and sociology of messaging.

So, for example, I saw Brian get torqued out of his mind because a kid was wearing a Che Guevara shirt. And so, Brian stops and goes, "Do you understand what that shirt means? Do you even know who that is?" And Brian's like, "No, it's just a shirt." Brian goes, "Well, let me educate you on something." And Brian goes down the rabbit hole and tells the person who Che was, what kind of person they were, and everything else. And "Do you understand that just by wearing that shirt, you're kind of promoting that type of behavior?" And the person was like in a collegiate setting and saying, "Wow, I never knew that." The most important part of that conversation, all of it was important, but the most important part was the person had no idea.

The other thing is sometimes people wear things to be provocative or evocative. I never wear message clothing. I have a choice that I make because I... and it's nothing with the grey man horse crap. It's that I don't want to give somebody piece to latch on to, to give them an angle or an opportunity. Yet, I use your wearing Under Armour or things like that, or like tattoos. I can use your tattoos to start a conversation, but I'm not going to look at your infidel tattoo and decide that you hate Muslims. You see?

So, so a guy wearing a provocative shirt that comes back to—and here I'm going to be provocative—to killing Jews, or to mass murder, to Pol Pot, or to abortion, or any of those other things. Maybe they're just trying to get your goat. So, if I spend too much time on that speed bump, on that point of turbulence, I'm going to miss all the other things because the shirt itself doesn't always mean it's a demonstration of intent. As a matter of fact, it's so rare that I remember only a couple of times where it would have been a good warning. Okay? And so when somebody makes a list, and then they write that thing on their shirt with a marker, and it's not a mass-produced shirt that is sold to a lot of people, and they decide to walk in, okay, maybe that's a pre-event indication, Brian, but most times it's not. So saying something like "that person shot at that" or "that person defaced this" before they go on... like, you know, this thing with Tesla and with the cars, and I don't know [expletive] about it, but the example is that most of the people that are doing that are just angry and they need to lash out at something, and that happens to be the du jour. That happens to be the soup of the day, Brian. And so if you really got down into it, do they really understand the inner workings of this man's mind? No.

And that, that's... well, it doesn't... it doesn't, that, that, that's a perfect example because it, you know, a few years ago is like, "Oh, you drive a Tesla. You're, you know, think you're some liberal saving the Earth," you know, blah, blah, blah, this thing. And then now it's like, "Oh, you drive a Tesla, you're a Nazi." And you're like, "What the [expletive]?" Like, so, so, so both... But to me, I'm like those people that think that way, they're the same people. They're [expletive]. They're morons. They, like, we need to stop, we need to stop giving them their, their time, their moment, and we need to stop amplifying those messages because it's just stupid. It's, it's, I mean, it's like the dumbest way to look at something.

And, and but, but to that point, we all do that to some degree. We attribute value to something in, in a god, in just such an arbitrary way without knowing it. And tattoos are a great one, right? We've had people say, "Oh, well, that, that tattoo means this." "It could mean that." It's like, "Well, did you ask that person who got the tattoo?" Because they might have just thought it looked cool. They might have just thought it was this, you know? And so, so it's very, very hard to determine on, on one thing. And we, we get focused in on those things because they're, they're interesting or they're novel. And it's like, "No, just stick with the actual things that the person did and you can go back through a timeline and say, 'Oh, wow. I see where they were, where they were, where they were going with this.'" And, and I mean, it just...

Well, that's the thing. It reminded me one time, I don't know why it spurred this memory, but my buddy at the gym he had, I used to work out at, you know, I'd look out the front window sometime. This guy was like across the street, but there was a, there was a little like a Boys and Girls Club there. So, they drop kids off, you know, after school or during the summer, like they have little summer camps and stuff. So, there was like one, a lot of parents driving in and out of there, which was complete chaos, and they're the worst drivers on the face of the Earth. But then, you know, it's just like there's activity going on out there, and there's like an atmosphere to it, especially during the summer. The kids are outside in the little fencing area playing and stuff like that. You can hear it. And then, you know, I just see this, this, this guy, and he's like he, he, you know, opens up the back of his SUV, and all I look while I'm in the middle of doing something is he looks left, looks right, checks his six, and I'm like, "Whoa, what the [expletive]?" And this is at like the Boys and Girls Club is right there. So, rather than going out the front door, I go out the side entrance to take a look. And what it was is there was like a drop-off point there, and he was trying to, like, a drop-off for extra like, you know, whether it's clothes or like even furniture stuff, and then they'll take it and, you know, they'll resell it and stuff like that for money, and you're just, you're just donating it. Well, he was had this heavy [expletive] like dresser in the back of his vehicle, and like he was looking around to see if there was someone to like give him a hand or something like that. You know what I mean? Because it was, but, but the thing is, I've seen that look when someone pulled a [expletive] RPG out of the trunk of a vehicle, and it was the same exact thing because he was looking around. And so I'm like, "Oh, [expletive], here we go!" And I look, and I'm like, "Oh, hey!" Of course, naturally, I'm still investigating. I'm like, "Hey, do you need a hand with something?" He's like, "Yeah, bro, can you help me get this thing out of the vehicle? I don't want to break it when I drop it out of here. It was a pain in the [expletive] to get in." I was like, "Yeah, here you go." And it had like, you know, the little thing that he had to fill out.

But what I'm saying is like it, it didn't have to do with what he was wearing, or the type of car that he had, or, or, you know, his tattoos, or his, you know, the tank top he had on. You know, it was just what his behavior within that defined context was. And so it's, it's like, I, I don't know how to, how to, it's hard sometimes I think for us, and, and, and when you get this initial like to see something or to explain it where people either go, "Yeah, but it could be whatever," or they go, "Oh, yeah, I, I, I totally get it." "Yeah. No, that makes sense." It's like, "Yeah, but you're not doing it." It's like, "No, no, I get it." When I see that stuff, it's like, no, no. It's seeing it every single day. It's at the Starbucks when nothing is happening. It's at your local place when there is nothing wrong to still be able to determine the incongruent signals and what's typical and what's normal, because if I start with that, it's going to be much easier. And, and going down this other rabbit hole just of ideology and what that means is just it's, it's all...

Well, it's important, Brian. It's great when you're writing a report and you tie those things back and say, "These were how I made the identification of the person. These were things that I saw that were unique to this person so I knew it was the same person I was following," like for surveillance and all those other things, because they could be descriptors. They could be identifying factors, but the idea is behavior is much more important.

So, so we know from just watching the caper that Audrey never intended to make it out of that building. We also know that she was familiar with this school. She was familiar, and she chose it. Why? Well, geographic familiarity means something to me. So I don't go, "Wow, that door is locked. Wow, they're closed today. Wow." You know, "I chose the bar to rob and it's the pancake breakfast for the police league," right? So, so there's a certain amount of things that we can take a look at and determine likelihood.

And so, one of the things is that there's a great set of photos of her on the second floor, I believe, shooting down at the police officers and shooting at the police car. Why? Because she was at the end of her plan. She doesn't have additional information in the plan. And she goes, "Well, the cops are here, and this was going to be my way out anyway. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to shoot some cops and I'm going to shoot at some cops and I'm going to keep the firefight up for a while." Why? Because my plan didn't have a chapter next. So, because I don't have a chapter next... "Well, this is as good a place as any." And they're here and I'm here. If she would think back to Klebold and Harris, Klebold and Harris effectively chased out everybody that could have been a next victim. Okay. So then they were like, "Well, we're at the end of our plan, and we are going to take hostages and demand a helicopter and a bus, but, you know, we're at the end. So we killed each other."

So what I'm saying is, Brian, sometimes we have to look at what led up to it. For example, if she would have left the car running in front of the business, for example, she shot through the security of the front doors. We saw the videotape on that. Anybody watching would have seen that. So that means that she had a plan for those doors. But you know what? She didn't have a plan for all those big guns hanging out of the bag. Did you see her try to get through that front door? She got caught and then she backed up and then she had to duck down. So certain things like that show us that this is a novice. This isn't her second or third school shooting. This person is learning and adapting as they're going.

And so those things, seeing those intent-based human behavior observations, help me determine what kind of [expletive] I'm in for, for the firefight, for the coming arrest. Is the person going to drop the gun when the cops come and show? We can predict those. The FBI story says we can't predict any of this stuff. And reality and science show that we can't predict any of this stuff. But we can determine likelihood based on demonstrations of intent. And what's the best place to do that? A gosh-darn parking lot, because parking lots are ubiquitous and we're in them all the time, which means we have a lot more comparative information on what's clinically normal and what's not. That's it. I mean, think of that. So that's, that's the, that's the part of it about, you know, since all of our, every perception, every observation you have, is a comparison to something. It's a comparison to a known. That's why when people go, "Hey, that looks weird or different," or "I don't get that." It's because you're looking at something, and whether you recognize or not, there's something about the situation, the person, what's happening that, that, that doesn't fit, like that you haven't seen before. Now again, that doesn't mean it's, they're, they're, you know, planning an attack on something. It just means it's something.

But the, the, the point is that's why we use the parking lot, because it's like, you go through how many parking lots a day? Everywhere you go, you, you, you have to go into a parking lot. It's the absolute perfect place to, you know, update and inform your baseline, the context, the what's normal, what's typical, what do I see, you know, doing that lap around. And it, well, it was, it was like, I mean, we, we even put one of those out. Do you remember when we were? It's on our Instagram, folks. It actually kind of got, I think it got like a couple million views or something. But the, the one where we were in, we were in, we were just outside, we were in Ann Arbor, and, you know, we did a drive around the parking lot because we saw just this a vehicle parked as far away from the building as you could, not near any of the other things. There was like an arm sticking out of it or something like that, and we just did a drive around, and you were narrating and I was, you know, filming. And the, the, the point is like that was, we, we, that could have been Audrey Hale, but it wasn't. It was a couple kids, or whatever it was, people hanging out having a cigarette. It's like that, that's the point is if, if you can't do it here, then you're never going to see that stuff. If you can't tell me what's typical and do that sensemaking exercise to, to do a hypothesis test and say, "All right, if this is, then what else it could be, let me go investigate further." And it literally took a minute. A minute, because the video is a minute long, and that's how long it took to determine, is this something that they're just hanging out, or is this something dangerous that we have to investigate further? And so those simple, those simple exercises that people do is that's where, where all the, all the power is in it. I think it's, it's that's how you get better at it.

So, absolutely agreed.

All right. Well, look, we're almost up on an hour. Do you want to drop a couple more [expletives] to see if we can get the FCC to actually drive to your house?

That's... I set a record today. No, no, no, buddy. Listen, folks, if you can't get emotionally torqued by reading this report, I don't care where you are. If you're a parent, if you work for a school, if you work in a gosh-darn factory making widgets, this is emblematic of the problem because it took two years to get the report. And it's an incredible report. But look at all the rabbit holes that people are going to jump onto. And you know what the important ones are? What are the demonstrations of intent? What can I prove right now is incongruent, and why does it matter to what's going to happen next? And if they follow in a pattern, then you're likely a piece of candy. It's about to, you know, it's about to be game on. That alone, Brian, that helps me defend against a shitty situation.

Yeah. So that, that, that's sort of our challenge to the listeners is like the next time you're in a parking lot, figure out, you know, why would someone park here versus there, what are they likely doing? Where is this likely happening? What is the reason for that, right? I remember when we pulled up to that one place, what was it? Where it was like 20 or there were like 20 or 30 HVAC vans in the parking lot. We're going, "What? This isn't an HVAC." So, "Is this a conference? What's going?" And they were doing like their big, there's like some big project going on nearby, and they all had to park there. But it was one of those so out of the place, right? But, but, you know, you and figure out where it is, you know, just go, "All right, what's the, what's the next most logical step? Where is this going? If I see this, then what else could it be?" So, that's sort of our challenge, the parking lot challenge. And then of course we'll have more on the Patreon for those subscribers, and I'll have some of the photos from the report, and I'll put all the links in there too as well so you can, you can check it out and read through this. But it's, it's, it's a good one, as most of these investigations are after the fact where there's some great information, and Nashville did an incredible job with the information they had. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. I think that's it. Greg, we, we went over a lot. I, I probably, we need, need like a, a, a bleep button for me on, on this one, but it's just, yeah. Yeah. So, we appreciate everyone for tuning in. Like I said, there's always more on Patreon. Reach out with any questions that you have. You know, you can always reach out to us too at thehumanbehaviorpodcastmail.com. And you could, you know, and, and to our Patreon folks, always giving us great, you know, suggestions for podcast topics and that's where we get a lot of them. So, we appreciate you for that. And thanks everyone for tuning in. If you, if you enjoyed the episode, give us a good review. Share it with a friend. That'd be great. And don't forget that training changes behavior.